What would you change for d20 Modern 2.0

[eyebeams]

Say what you like my friend...just thought it would be fun to put a picture with the discussion. Every one's tough behind the computer screen.

It has nothing do do with "toughness." It has to do with human physiology. There are many things you can do without affecting circulation or causing brain injury. Causing true unconsciousness is not one of them. Even claims of creating arhythmia are highly suspect, despite the fact that they are (very) theoretically possible via the vagus nerve.

Passve recievers are, I grant, likely to confuse these effects with being knocked out (and people with no experience fighting with heavy contact may experience shock and faint with minimal stimulus), but it's not the same thing at all (hint: people who are really knocked out don't reach out to break their own falls).

It certainly doesn't lead to anything simulated by the current rules, either.

I won't derail the thread. If you want to talk about those things either go to martialtalk.com, budoseek.net, defend.net, or fightingarts.com and find my discussions there to comment on.

I'm on martialtalk, but when it comes to talking plausibility, bullshido.net is a better bet.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

So, is knocking someone's feet out from under them and then kicking them in the side of the head lethal or non-lethal?

 

[eyebeams]

If you're knocked out in d20 Modern from nonlethal damage, it's only for 1d4+1 rounds.

Now, as somebody who has had to use martial arts in a self defense context twice (once to subdue a drunken and violent college dorm roommate, once to stop a mugger in a parking lot), a well executed jujitsu or aikijutsu technique knocking somebody to the ground and incapacitating them for 12 to 30 seconds seems very reasonable. Most people when they get into a fight aren't expecting to hit the ground quickly, and it can be very disorienting, putting them effectively out of the fight for a while.

"Knock out" in d20 Modern doesn't mean concussion or blood loss to the brain, it means they are out of action and helpless for a short time. They are "unconscious", which is defined as "An unconscious character is unable to defend himself. He is helpless and typically falls prone". Much like a "knockout" in boxing doesn't mean they are medically unconscious, just that they couldn't get back on their feet by a count of 10, the game definition of Unconscious isn't the medical definition, it's that they are helpless, defenseless, and most likely on the ground.

That's a fair argument, but it doesn't justify two first level guys not being able to incapacitate each other, either. Normal guys knock the wind out of each other all the time.

 

[eyebeams]

So, is knocking someone's feet out from under them and then kicking them in the side of the head lethal or non-lethal?

In real life, kicking people in the head can be anything from ineffectual to fatal, whether they're off their feet or not, but nobody wants a game system where any injury might kill you or do almost nothing with everything from a foot to a longarm, because you cannot guarantee victory through attrition. That's a key point in D20 that's missing from the Modern nonlethal rules.

 

[eyebeams]

Oh yeah -- Wealth

Let me come out in support of Wealth, since I don't have to worry about contemporary currency values, exchange rates or credit. Does anybody really want to figure out their character's credit cards, credit line, car payments, income and taxes?

 

[wingsandsword]

That's a fair argument, but it doesn't justify two first level guys not being able to incapacitate each other, either. Normal guys knock the wind out of each other all the time.

That I will agree with, I also noted that earlier that I think it should use D&D style accumulating subdual for that reason.

However, what I said was meant to explain how nonlethal damage can provide a "knockout" without lasting side effects, like a concussion, as well as how it is possible to incapacitate somebody with one skilled but nonlethal attack.

 

[eyebeams]

That I will agree with, I also noted that earlier that I think it should use D&D style accumulating subdual for that reason.

However, what I said was meant to explain how nonlethal damage can provide a "knockout" without lasting side effects, like a concussion, as well as how it is possible to incapacitate somebody with one skilled but nonlethal attack.

Sounds fair.

 

[Falkus]

That's a fair argument, but it doesn't justify two first level guys not being able to incapacitate each other, either. Normal guys knock the wind out of each other all the time.

Focusing on the main point of what I said, these people can choose to deal lethal damage, instead of nonlethal, and just hope their opponent doesn't bleed to death after being put down beloew 0.

 

[C. Baize]

Focusing on the main point of what I said, these people can choose to deal lethal damage, instead of nonlethal, and just hope their opponent doesn't bleed to death after being put down beloew 0.

And hoping either of them can hit with that -4 penalty... at first level...

 

[Ranger REG]

On another note...one thing I liked about d20 modern was the artwork... Definately loved the artwork they did for it. What did you guys think of the layout?

They're decent, though none of them did really catch my eyes?

OTOH, Urban Arcana artworks are way too "urban."