D&D 4E What would you like 4E to look like.

[Kanegrundar]

I think we're going to see a D&D that's tied more closely to miniatures. It's a smart move on WotC's part as the minis sell in ways that the newest Complete X just won't. I think the system will still be D20, but will be simplified in many areas. In a lot of areas such as spell casting, I think we'll see a shift away from the old style and more into a MMORPG style. There will likely be a system set up to allow for random play, possibly even DM-less play ala Warhammer Quest or Dungeon Bash, but there will also be a section talking about getting a more robust roleplaying experience by having a GM and then giving some helpful hints on how to craft adventures and such.

Will that all be bad? Not really. Further editions won't be written for the current fanbase, but for new players. What are those possible new players playing? World of Warcraft, Everquest, Vanguard, and various other MMORPGS. It's the smart move to to make. Sure, a new edition in this vein will leave a lot of current players pissed off to no end. However, WotC isn't going to care. The overwhelming majority will move onto the next edition, and those that don't, well, they weren't the target demographic in the first place. I'm not sure how would feel about it, but if it allows me to run games more quickly than I do now or allow be to easily run a pick-up game that can be finished in a couple of hours, then I'd likely at least give it the ol' college try.

 

[Greg K]

Kanegrundar,
that is one possible way to go. However, would Hasbro risk not only alienating the current fanbase, but the possiblility of failing to grab the new customers as well? From what I have heard, WOTC and Hasbro consider d20Modern a failure despite the fact that many other rpg companies would consider the sales number a success. I doubt they would risk sales below a guranteed number by relying on an entirely new and uncertain demographic while pissing off their established base.

I think we're going to see a D&D that's tied more closely to miniatures. It's a smart move on WotC's part as the minis sell in ways that the newest Complete X just won't. I think the system will still be D20, but will be simplified in many areas. In a lot of areas such as spell casting, I think we'll see a shift away from the old style and more into a MMORPG style. There will likely be a system set up to allow for random play, possibly even DM-less play ala Warhammer Quest or Dungeon Bash, but there will also be a section talking about getting a more robust roleplaying experience by having a GM and then giving some helpful hints on how to craft adventures and such.

Will that all be bad? Not really. Further editions won't be written for the current fanbase, but for new players. What are those possible new players playing? World of Warcraft, Everquest, Vanguard, and various other MMORPGS. It's the smart move to to make. Sure, a new edition in this vein will leave a lot of current players pissed off to no end. However, WotC isn't going to care. The overwhelming majority will move onto the next edition, and those that don't, well, they weren't the target demographic in the first place. I'm not sure how would feel about it, but if it allows me to run games more quickly than I do now or allow be to easily run a pick-up game that can be finished in a couple of hours, then I'd likely at least give it the ol' college try.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I would love to see the 4e combat system split into two separate chapters - a basic combat chapter for those who want a more streamlined experience and a tactical combat chapter for those that want a more 'crunchy' experience. Ideally, the basic combat rules wouldn't require the use of miniatures at all. Ideally, the basic combat rules would be used for those incidental battles that involve fast-moving narrative combat, while the advanced rules would be used for the big climactic battles where every tactical choice counts.

I think that the advanced combat rules should contain more guidelines for cinematic stunts and interaction between the combatants and their environment -- the kind of stuff that Mike Mearls did so well in Iron Heroes.

From a stylistic point of view, I'd also like rulebooks that contain more flavour text. The current 3.5 rulebooks are a very dry read indeed -- and don't give readers much of an idea what the game should feel like in play. Give the High Gygaxian prose of the 1st edition DMG any day!

Additionally, I think that the core rules for 4e should concentrate on providing gamers with the tools that they need to run a 'traditional' D&D game. The introduction of material required for different genres (such as anime-inspired settings and steampunk-inspired settings) should be placed in appendicies or moved into individual sourcebooks.

Finally, I think that 4e should be published under the OGL but that WoTC should work closely with major third-party publishers to ensure that the market is more unified and does not become saturated with poor-quality products. This kind of cooperation would benefit everyone - WoTC would benefit because the entire industry would tend to standardize on 4e, while third-party publishers would benefit because consumer confidence in their products would be higher. Alas, I fear that the whole concept of the OGL has fallen out of favour within Hasbro over the past few years...

 

[Kanegrundar]

Kanegrundar,
that is one possible way to go. However, would Hasbro risk not only alienating the current fanbase, but the possiblility of failing to grab the new customers as well? From what I have heard, WOTC and Hasbro consider d20Modern a failure despite the fact that many other rpg companies would consider the sales number a success. I doubt they would risk sales below a guranteed number by relying on an entirely new and uncertain demographic while pissing off their established base.

They may, but I don't think that it would be so different as to alienate anyone. There are some areas in the rules such as Bardic Music, Turn Undead, and some spell descriptors that are needlessly complex from the viewpoint of new gamers (and some older gamers) that can be cleaned up, easier to read, and overall be made to work better than they did before. All in all, everything that it currently in 3.5E right now would be in the new edition, but things would be tweaked and a new, more accessible feel would be given to the rules to make it recognizable to new players from MMORPG's, while still holding much of the feel that current players have come to enjoy. Let's face it as well, that most of us that play 3E are going to move on with the next edition. Some may not continue past the initial release, but most will. That's just the way things go. Prior history has proven that. As long as the system is still recognizable as a 3E off-shoot, and if it's easier to play while still being easy enough to convert material from 3E to, then I don't see how WotC would lose in that situation.

D20 Modern was a failure because modern and sci-fi gaming are are niche in the RPG industry. Fantasy games rule the roost and are the ones that sell...especially with Dungeons and Dragons on the cover. D20 Modern was NEVER going to sell anywhere close to the numbers of D&D. Never. Plus, factoring in daddy Hasbro looking over WotC's shoulder expecting every release to be a big seller (even if those expectations are, well, flawed) there was no way that it was going to realistically be a hit, although if D20M would have been a release for a smaller publisher, it would have been nothing short than a blockbuster hit.

 

[scourger]

I would like it to look more like Savage Worlds and Omega World. I like both of those games because they are concise. OW really took d20 and trimmed the fat to make a great little game with all the tools you need in about a 40-page toolbox. SW does the same thing but remains powerful enough to play long-term. Another post asked who I would hire to revamp D&D, and the answer is the same for who I would want working on 4e: Jonathan Tweet and Shane Lacy Hensley. I think they could make it simpler while preserving all the really core elements. At the same time, they could make it flexible and powerful enough to play different ways and genres--which leaves open the possibility of selling more books without bloating the system. And let's face it, 4e has to be able to sell books for a while to keep the biggest RPG company in business.

Here's hoping Star Wars Saga Edition goes those directions while proving profitable so that 4e can have the same development.

 

[Greg K]

Additionally, I think that the core rules for 4e should concentrate on providing gamers with the tools that they need to run a 'traditional' D&D game. The introduction of material required for different genres (such as anime-inspired settings and steampunk-inspired settings) should be placed in appendicies or moved into individual sourcebooks.

Most definitely provided that "traditional DND" does not mean the "back to the dungeon" mentality.

Finally, I think that 4e should be published under the OGL but that WoTC should work closely with major third-party publishers to ensure that the market is more unified and does not become saturated with poor-quality products. This kind of cooperation would benefit everyone - WoTC would benefit because the entire industry would tend to standardize on 4e, while third-party publishers would benefit because consumer confidence in their products would be higher. Alas, I fear that the whole concept of the OGL has fallen out of favour within Hasbro over the past few years...

Well, as someone that considers several third party companies to produce higher quality material, I think that WOTC should turn to a company like Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight Games or RPGObjects for help.

 

[EvilDwarf]

3E is killing us

I'm lucky enough to still be playing with the same core group that I played with in college--and I'm talking about since the beginning. I still remember that afternoon, running out of the Hobby Shop with the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook (1E), my friend Scott and me drooling over how everything had been revised, expanded, etc.

3E (and 3.5), though, has just about killed our gaming. We're die-hard D&Der's, so Talisman and Warhammer are just momentary distractions. We want D&D. But we're just not up to 3.5 anymore, for reasons that have been posted ad nauseum: character creation requires software or takes forever; combat lasts forever; game prep takes forever; the rules are strung across a dozen books (yeah, we could stick with core--but even then, we have gamers since 1E who still can't figure out how to optimize feats or keep track of skill points or stacking bonuses, etc. And that buying/making your own magic items thingy? Still leaves a blood-like tang in our mouths). Our gaming is drying up under the weight of 3E.

I would like a 4E that is basic. I'd like one where you have character customization without the need for optimization (for instance, Monte Cook said himself that D&D is designed to reward those players who master THE SYSTEM). For instance, instead of having a separate chapter on Feats, feats would be rolled into class, and you might get a choice or three at various levels, with those choices being balanced so you could choose for flavor instead of mastery. Or, you would choose a kit (and do away with PrC altogether; requires too much metagaming to plot your course) at start up, and your feats and skills would be largely laid out for you.

(One neat thing my group LIKED about Warhammer was the career system--they said it made it easier to role play because the "class" was a pretty well-defined niche. 4E D&D could do this by setting up something like in the appendix of the PHBII for NPCs. Instead of choosing a Rogue and then having to master the sytem to optimize your skills and feats, you could choose a Vagabond, or Beggar, or Cat Burglar, etc. with the class abilities/feats/options choices minimized).

I'd like a 4E that might not even have a skills system at all that resembles 3E, but might be more like C&C's skills engine.

I'd like a 4E that isn't M:tG-ified: get rid of the problem with stacking, get rid of feats that are designed as rule exceptions, and so on. Again, allow customization without the need to master optimization.

Etc.

So, I guess I'm in support of the "move back to basics" idea and design first for the group that meets once a week for 4 hours and would like to get some adventuring done during that time, and the DM wouldn't have to spend a like amount of time prepping.

Sorry if this post sounds like a rant (does this post sound like a duck? Walk like a...oh, never mind).

Cheers.

 

[Prime_Evil]

Most definitely provided that "traditional DND" does not mean the "back to the dungeon" mentality.

Agreed...but IMHO traditional D&D has always been about more than just dungeon crawls.

I suppose that I'd like to see a move away from the 'dungeonpunk' look and feel that has come to define the game over the past few years. That stuff definitely has a place in the D&D multiverse...but it's not in the core rules - for exactly the same reason that a gothic horror sensibility (a la Ravenloft) should not inform the feel of the core rules. The purpose of the core rules is to define a common baseline -- probably derived from either High Fantasy or Swords & Sorcery literature - from which individual campaign settings can be built.

My personal preference would be for a return to a pulp-era cinematic swords & sorcery atmosphere based on the works of authors like Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith et al...but I freely acknowledge that times have moved on and tastes have changed since first edition.

Well, as someone that considers several third party companies to produce higher quality material, I think that WOTC should turn to a company like Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight Games or RPGObjects for help.

I agree that the products produced by these companies is better than some of the stuff being pumped out by WoTC at the moment. Heck, I buy absolutely EVERYTHING that is put out by Green Ronin...even if I don't have an immediate use for it. Don't get me wrong...I'm certainly doing my bit to keep Mr Pramas afloat

But the perception amongst the game store owners that I have met - not to mention many players who don't hang out on ENWorld - seems to be that everything produced by third-party companies is unbalanced crap. A public relations push by WoTC timed to coincide with the release of 4e could help to turn this perception around - and restore some credibility that the d20 brand name lost during the v3.5 crash.

 

[Droogie]

My thoughts on a 4th Edition, in no particular order

1. Classes. I like them. Nice and easy. I'd like a nice variety of classes, with optional rules in the appendix on how to build your own. If you had that , I think it would be safe to dump the prestige class concept too.
I vote NO against a d20 Modern-like system, with all of its occupations and talent trees and bonus feats upon bonus feats upon bonus feats. We're trying to speed up the game, remember? I sat down to make an 8th level modern character the other day and it took me 2 hours. I wanted to cry.

2. Magic Attack Progression. Good idea. This was presented in UA, wasn't it?

3. New Magic System. In fact, an end to the whole rediculous "spell effect x amount per day" mechanic. No slots. No spell points, which is just a more granular slot system. True20 has the right idea with the skill check concept. Even Wotc is headed in the right direction with the Warlock class.

4. Revamped experience system. Something easier, more intuitive. Less "H&R Block". Allow for more story awards rather than monster corpses. New CR system would be nice, too.

5. New magic item concepts. Without magic items, it wouldn't feel like D&D to me - but I was never too fond of wands that were basically fantasy ray-guns, complete with "ammo". Maybe wands and staffs could give you a bonus to your MAB instead, much like magic swords boost your BAB. Hmmmm.

6. Refined Skill System. Some consolidation would be nice; we've seen it in True 20, and we're getting it in Star Wars Saga Edition. Maybe we can ditch cross-class skills? The character's ability scores and skill point total should keep things balanced enough. It would make character generation faster too, with or without software.


We're all hitting some similar notes here, but its obvious 4e won't please us all. I feel really sorry for the poor sap who has to design it.

 

[Greg K]

3. New Magic System. In fact, an end to the whole rediculous "spell effect x amount per day" mechanic. No slots. No spell points, which is just a more granular slot system. True20 has the right idea with the skill check concept. Even Wotc is headed in the right direction with the Warlock class.

I could go with the True20 approach.

6. Refined Skill System. Some consolidation would be nice; we've seen it in True 20, and we're getting it in Star Wars Saga Edition. Maybe we can ditch cross-class skills? The character's ability scores and skill point total should keep things balanced enough. It would make character generation faster too, with or without software.

Star Wars, from what I have read, went way to far in combining skills. I just watched a movie (non Star Wars) the other day in which somebody acrobatic was tied up and acrobatics would not have helped them escape their bonds. Reminded me why combining Escape Artist and Tumble was a bad idea.

As for cross-class skills, I don't think they need to be ditched. The class/cross class distinction is still useful for determining cost or max rank limits. What needs to be changed is the mechanics for cross class skills- none of the current half rank per skill point garbage.