D&D 5E What would you like to see in a "revised edition" of 5E?

[Mistwell]

A whole bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the topic

What the heck was that?

Dave, we're not communicating here. You said your game became seriously unbalanced by one (or both) of the feats that grant +10 damage at the expense of -5 attack. I asked what specifically happened to your game from the feats use.

That's it. I am not asking about your general theories about 5e.

From multiple answers now which dance around that question, I am at this point guessing you either don't want to talk about it, or nothing specific to that feat actually did "seriously unbalance" your game?

 

[brehobit]

What the heck was that?

Dave, we're not communicating here. You said your game became seriously unbalanced by one (or both) of the feats that grant +10 damage at the expense of -5 attack. I asked what specifically happened to your game from the feats use.

That's it. I am not asking about your general theories about 5e.

From multiple answers now which dance around that question, I am at this point guessing you either don't want to talk about it, or nothing specific to that feat actually did "seriously unbalance" your game?

Wow, I really can't understand how you could have missed his points. Basic theme: his group enjoys system mastery. They have found that there are a limited set of clearly optimal options that make system mastery trivial. This is a problem for them.

I think that's pretty reasonable. I played D&D on-line and the generic fights generally suffered from this same problem--there was one set of tactics that was optimal (generally involving wall of fire).

Now, I don't know if he's right about the issues (in fact, I suspect things they are finding to be optimal aren't as optimal as they think). But it's certainly a good and valid worry given their play style.

Also, he's finding creating balanced encounters very difficult. I 100% believe _that_ one. Bounded accuracy has a lot of good sides, but that's going to be a tricky one. It's one I _think_ I'll like, but...

In any case, he answered your question quite well. You may not agree with it, but please don't pretend he didn't. They are having less fun because of these issues. Which is what you asked.

 

[DaveDash]

What the heck was that?

Dave, we're not communicating here. You said your game became seriously unbalanced by one (or both) of the feats that grant +10 damage at the expense of -5 attack. I asked what specifically happened to your game from the feats use.

That's it. I am not asking about your general theories about 5e.

From multiple answers now which dance around that question, I am at this point guessing you either don't want to talk about it, or nothing specific to that feat actually did "seriously unbalance" your game?

I knew I shouldn't have given you a serious answer.

 

[Evenglare]

If you like system mastery there are plenty of games out there that do it much better. Pathfinder for instance or 3.x. Id rather you not turn 5e into something that it's not. The game clearly isn't about system mastery. It gives more power to the GM and allows for on the cuff calls. Why force a game into some sort of niche that it clearly is not intended to be and if it WAS it would lose the one thing that sets it apart from other editions. Heck 4e is a great system mastery game. Why not play any of those other games? Why force 5e into something it clearly isn't designed for? Also I'm not seeing the "serious" balancing issue either. Maybe something that might bug you but "serious" isn't a word i'd use. The game isn't nearly as broken as Dave is making it out to be.

 

[Zardnaar]

If you like system mastery there are plenty of games out there that do it much better. Pathfinder for instance or 3.x. Id rather you not turn 5e into something that it's not. The game clearly isn't about system mastery. It gives more power to the GM and allows for on the cuff calls. Why force a game into some sort of niche that it clearly is not intended to be and if it WAS it would lose the one thing that sets it apart from other editions. Heck 4e is a great system mastery game. Why not play any of those other games? Why force 5e into something it clearly isn't designed for? Also I'm not seeing the "serious" balancing issue either. Maybe something that might bug you but "serious" isn't a word i'd use. The game isn't nearly as broken as Dave is making it out to be.

The game is kind of broken and its not just the -5/+10 feats either, spellcasters in general or at least PC spell casters. NPC spell casters do not get to survive long enough to matter so it is kind of rocket tage for them to go 1st to get an attack in before they get pasted. The concentration mechanic limits what they can do to stay alive. PCs generally can make concentration checks alot easier or start hitting PCs with the same spells they use on NPCs and see if they squeal although PC defenses are slightly more robust or at least they can break concentration of NPCs easier.

Dave Dash provided an example of HoTDQ with a 5th level party killing a CR 16 Dragon and even as written they are using a CR13 dragon on 7th level PC.

 

[ren1999]

5th Edition is much more manageable than other editions. It is a positive step in making the game fun and playable again.

The best thing about it is the short combat duration.

The skill system is great.

But here is what I would do to make this game even better.

EDITED because my thoughts are as much as a disorganized mess as what we are trying to fix.

The Race Variant

Dragonborn, Half
Languages: Common, Draconic
Resistance: Resistant to 1 damage type
Trait: Breath weapon only 1 target, according to the spell variant rules, damage

according to the class variant rules
Senses: DarkVision 120 ft.
Size: Medium 5x5 ft. averaging 6 feet tall
Speed: 30 ft.

Elf
Languages: Common, Elvish
Resistance: immune to sleep
Saving Throws: save versus charm at advantage
Senses: DarkVision 60 ft.
Size: Medium 5x5 ft. averaging 6 feet tall
Speed: 35 ft.

Elf, Half
Languages: Common, Elvish, 1 other language
Resistance: immune to sleep
Senses: DarkVision 30 ft.
Size: Medium 5x5 ft. averaging 5.5 feet tall
Speed: 30 ft.

Dwarf
Languages: Common, Dwarvish
Resistance: resistant to poison
Saving Throws: save versus poision at advantage
Senses: DarkVision 120 ft.
Size: Medium 5x5 ft.
Speed: 25 ft.

Halfling(Gnome)
Languages: Common, Halfling(Gnomish)
Saving Throws: save versus fear at advantage
Size: Small 2.5x2.5 ft. averaging 3 feet tall
Speed: 25 ft.
Trait: Moves through a larger being's space
Trait: Can try to hide behind a larger being

Human
Languages: Common, 1 other language
Saving Throws: save versus poison or fear or charm at advantage
Size: Medium 5x5 ft. Averaging 5 feet tall
Speed: 30 ft.
Trait: +1 to an ability(max 20)
Trait: +1 to another ability(max 20)

Orc, Half
Languages: Common, Orc
Senses: DarkVision 60 ft.
Size: Medium 5x5 ft. Averaging 6 feet tall
Speed: 30 ft.
Trait: 0 hit points becomes 1 hit point
Trait: Critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20(max 18, 19, or 20)

Tiefling, Half
Languages: Common, Infernal
Resistance: resistant to fire
Senses: DarkVision 60 ft.
Size: Medium 5x5 ft. Averaging 5 feet tall
Speed: 30 ft.
Trait: +1 to an ability(max 20)

The Class Variant

The Martial Class
Ability Increase: Strength+1(max 20)
Proficiencies: Strength+Proficiency
Armor: Proficient with all armor. Start at Scale, upgrade to Banded(Splint),

then Plate with increasing wealth
Skills: Athletics+Expertise
Skills: 2 Skills+Proficiency(more than 3 skills, keep stats and move to the

Skilled class table.
Hit Points: Starting hit points are 12+constitution modifier
Hit Points: Each higher level hit points are 1d12(or 7 if the roll is lower than

7)+constitution modifier
Damage: 1d12+strength modifier two-handed weapon damage
Damage: 1d6+strength modifier primary weapon damage 1/2 of 1 Action
Damage: 1d6 secondary weapon damage 1/2 of 1 Action

The Skilled Class
Ability Increase: Dexterity+1(max 20)
Proficiencies: Dexterity+Proficiency
Armor: Proficient with up to Hard Leather armor. Start at Padded, upgrade to

Soft Leather, then Hard Leather with increasing wealth
Skills: (Rogue)Stealth+Expertise
Skills: (Ranger)Survival+Expertise
Skills: 4 Skills+Proficiency
Hit Points: Starting hit points are 10+constitution modifier
Hit Points: Each higher level hit points are 1d10(or 6 if the roll is lower than

6)+constitution modifier
Damage: 1d10+strength modifier two-handed weapon damage
Damage: 1d6+strength modifier primary weapon damage 1/2 of 1 Action
Damage: 1d4 secondary weapon damage 1/2 of 1 Action

The Mixed Class
Ability Increase: Wisdom+1(max 20)
Proficiencies: Wisdom+Proficiency
Armor: Proficient with up to Ring armor. Start at Studded, upgrade to Chain,

then Ring with increasing wealth
Skills: (Cleric, Druid)Religion+Expertise
Skills: 2 Skills+Proficiency
Hit Points: Starting hit points are 8+constitution modifier
Hit Points: Each higher level hit points are 1d8(or 5 if the roll is lower than

5)+constitution modifier
Damage: 1d8+strength modifier two-handed weapon damage
Damage: 1d4+strength modifier primary weapon damage 1/2 of 1 Action
Damage: 1d4 secondary weapon damage 1/2 of 1 Action
Spell Damage or Healing: 1d8 to 1 target, at-will

The Casting Class
Ability Increase: Intelligence+1(max 20)
Proficiencies: Intelligence+Proficiency
Armor: Proficient with abjuration spells and abjuration jewelry Skills: Arcana

+Expertise
Skills: 2 Skills+Proficiency
Hit Points: Starting hit points are 6+constitution modifier
Hit Points: Each higher level hit points are 1d6(or 4 if the roll is lower than

5)+constitution modifier
Damage: 1d6+strength modifier two-handed weapon damage
Damage: 1d4+strength modifier one-handed weapon damage
Spell Damage: 1d6 to 1 target or a 10x10 cubic foot area

Weapons
Combination weapons like Axe/Spear/Hammer would be priced out of the character's

starting wealth range. These weapons must be crafted for the character.

Armor
Martial classes would be able to afford Scale armor but Splint/Banded/Plate

armor would be priced out of the starting wealth range. Armor will need to be

customized so it can't just be taken by a monster.

The Spell Variant
All spells start at a range of 30 feet.
Spells targeting 1 being are at-will cantrips with no per day restrictions.
The dedicated Casting class can cast the spell with an area of 10x10 cubic feet

1 time per day. +1 time at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.
The Mixed class can exclusively cast Life Spells.
Spell damage or healing starts at 1d6 and increases +1d6 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and

20th level.

Weapons
Combination weapons like Axe/Spear/Hammer would be priced out of the character's

starting wealth range. These weapons must be crafted for the character.

Armor
Martial classes would be able to afford Scale armor but Splint/Banded/Plate

armor would be priced out of the starting wealth range. Armor will need to be

customized so it can't just be taken by a monster.

spells start at a range of
30 ft. and increase +5 ft. every level.
The spell area starts at 10x10 ft. and
increases +5 ft. @ 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th lvl.
Spells with 1 target should be at-will Cantrips.
The same spell cast on an area by the Dedicated Caster Class should be 1/day at

1st level,
+1/day at 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th lvl.
Spell damage or healing should start at 1d6 and increase 1d@5,10,15,20th lvl.

Level-Up Rewards Variant
+1 to 2 different ability scores(max 20)
or +2 to 1 ability score(max 20)
or 1 ability+proficiency
or 1 ability with proficiency upgraded to +expertise
or +1 action(max 5) (actions and reactions should be told by the player to the

DM immediately or most of the actions are lost)
or +1 reaction(max 5)
or +1 spell
or +1 feat(maneuver)
or +1 skill, if a martial class has more than 3 skills, the martial class keeps

her stats and moves to the skilled class table
or 1 skill+proficiency
or 1 skill with proficiency upgraded to skill+expertise
or critical hit on a roll of 19, 20
or if the character crits and 19, 20 upgrades to 18, 19, 20

 

[PnPgamer]

No revisions. Errata in some form yes please.

 

[Mistwell]

Wow, I really can't understand how you could have missed his points. Basic theme: his group enjoys system mastery. They have found that there are a limited set of clearly optimal options that make system mastery trivial. This is a problem for them.

But what does that have to do with seriously unbalancing the game?

In any case, he answered your question quite well. You may not agree with it, but please don't pretend he didn't. They are having less fun because of these issues. Which is what you asked.

I don't disagree with him, I don't see how he answered my question at all. "Having less fun" isn't "seriously unbalanced", because you can be bored with a balanced game. "Prefer X playstyle over Y playstyle" isn't "seriously unbalanced" because you can be irritated that your playstyle isn't supported but still have a balanced game. "Liking system mastery" isn't "seriously unbalanced" because you can like system mastery, you can be irritated that there are not enough options for system mastery, and still have a balanced game. What do those three things have to do with a particular two feats "seriously unbalancing" his game?

 

[Mistwell]

I knew I shouldn't have given you a serious answer.

It was a serious answer to a question that had not been asked. Nothing in your answer addressed anything that was seriously unbalanced. It addressed all kinds of other issues, like play style and what your players find fun and system mastery, without addressing the issue of things being seriously unbalanced.

 

[DaveDash]

It was a serious answer to a question that had not been asked. Nothing in your answer addressed anything that was seriously unbalanced. It addressed all kinds of other issues, like play style and what your players find fun and system mastery, without addressing the issue of things being seriously unbalanced.

That question had already been answered at the bottom of page 1.

Having a particular class/feat combination that can render most encounters built with the guidelines in the book ineffective does seriously imbalance the game. Especially given the fact that it is quite nicely balanced in many areas.
Furthermore anything that limits tactical choice by being the clearly superior option, instead of promoting more choice, unbalances the game, because choice is minimized, hence, less balanced.

I'm not going to go into exactly specific detailed examples because I get the feeling you're hovering around like a vulture ready to pick apart any minute detail or mistake that may have been made, whilst completely ignoring the in game context of each given scenario.
Just the fact that a 10th level character can output 100 damage per round per short rest should be enough for you to realise that this may lead to in AND out of game issues.

Or, as another example, picture this scenario. You're Bob the melee fighter and you've put hundreds if not thousands of hours into your character. You are finally reaching the higher levels. Jim the archer however in your group has decided to pick up Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert. As you start leveling up, you start to note a lot of encounters you're pretty ineffective compared to Jim. Jim can basically do everything you can do up close and personal in combat, but he can also do the same things at range, and unfortunately for you, most of the higher level encounters you're facing happen to use a lot of highly mobile flying, or legendary moving creatures.
Poor old you is huffing and puffing back and forth, throwing a Javelin here or a hand axe there, trying to keep up. Meanwhile Jim is shooting crossbow bolts like lazers, completely ignoring cover, and doing a ridiculous amount of damage from hundreds of feet away. Soon the party basically stops buffing you completely, and they start saving their buffs for Jim, realising how much more effective he is over you.
Unless the DM start banning feats and housing ruling things, which is probably going to be very annoying for Jim, OR engineer encounters to give Bob something to do (and subsequently nerf Jim, also pretty annoying for him), you're going to end up with a serious imbalance at your table.