What would you put in 1D&D from 4E?

[GMforPowergamers]

I imagine they probably think the same thing about why players are so cold about using new classes that other third-parties make. Why are they the only company that can make a Psionicist that players will accept, when there have been plenty of Psionicists made by other people across the 'net to choose from and use? And if players want a Warlord or the infamous "arcane half-caster"... you can find all manner of versions out there as well. But apparently those don't count?

I don't know if "don't count" is the right word... but my group doesn't use player side 3pp products... so no classes for 3pp.

Here is why. back in 3.5 (and a bit into 4e) we did, and what we found what happened went something like this... 1 player would find a cool class, or race or feat or magic item... anything really, and bring it to the DM and say "Can I use X" and the DM would read through it and give a thumbs up or thumbs down... we have plenty of DMs so if 1 said no you could try 2-5 more people depending on the year in question...
As we got older the less time we had to dedicate to gaming things. So today the idea that I as a DM would keep up with talk and read about all the WotC books is hard on me along with school work and wedding planning... and for Jon that is 2 jobs (although 1 just like 30 hrs a month) and being married and having a kid, and for matt that has gone from working at a store to owning a store... and we ALL need more 'down' time.
So, If I grab a warlord I like and Jon grabs a half arcane caster he likes and Linda grabs a complex warrior she likes and Kurt is nice... he just has 3 spells he wants his cleric to have from these 2 books.... that is now 4 books for matt to review,

now remember there are atleast 4 warlords on DMsguild... so If I am the DM and Ross brings me 1, and I don;t like it, I used to just go look for 1 I did and say "how about this?" I don't have the time to look them all over.

At some point WotC probably just threw up their hands and said "We went through all the effort to use the OGL for 5E so that players could get everything they wanted out of D&D that we ourselves were not interested or able to make... and yet players don't want to any of it and keep banging the drum for us to make it. We just can't win here!"

Your right they can't... unless (and this may sound crazy) they put out all of the classes they had in all teh PHB1s through out the games history that would be a great start... #JusticeforWarlord

 

[DEFCON 1]

So, If I grab a warlord I like and Jon grabs a half arcane caster he likes and Linda grabs a complex warrior she likes and Kurt is nice... he just has 3 spells he wants his cleric to have from these 2 books.... that is now 4 books for matt to review.

Or of course the other option is that all of you players just make the choice to not offer up or use options you know are overpowered, and thus Matt doesn't have to review a thing. You just find what you like that you know is completely adequate of a game component... and you play with it. And if by some chance down the line after you've all played them for a while, you all and Matt see that one of you really made a bad choice and the component either stinks or is trivializing everything... you do a couple edits and fix it without anyone putting up a stink.

It's all well and good for all of us to wish upon a star that WotC could give us every single little thing we desire... but at some point we all have to be a little realistic. They cannot and will not give us everything we want for the game, which is why they tell us to go outside of their publishing circle to get it. And at some point we have to make a decision of what's more important to us-- not playing what we want because we don't have the time or energy to make sure what we want is 100% balanced before it even its the table... or finding what we want and spend just a little bit of time playing it and then analyzing it to make sure we find it to be a reasonable character option.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Your right they can't... unless (and this may sound crazy) they put out all of the classes they had in all teh PHB1s through out the games history that would be a great start... #JusticeforWarlord

You're right, that does sound crazy.

 

[Undrave]

4e's rules where every ability has an Encounter/Daily uses and it doesn't matter how long anyone rests?

That's not how 4e works.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Or of course the other option is that all of you players just make the choice to not offer up or use options you know are overpowered, and thus Matt doesn't have to review a thing.

all we would need is a baseline... that even WotC can't provide. so I mean that seems like a tall order. 99.9% of the time we are not trying to cheat, we were just looking for fun.

You just find what you like that you know is completely adequate of a game component... and you play with it.

for the most part as a group we normally start with DM buy in then it (if disagree) goes to all of us for a vote... I have been told giving the whole table a say is odd though.

And if by some chance down the line after you've all played them for a while, you all and Matt see that one of you really made a bad choice and the component either stinks or is trivializing everything... you do a couple edits and fix it without anyone putting up a stink.

yeah not reading and just allowing all 3pp doesn't sound very tenable to me...

It's all well and good for all of us to wish upon a star that WotC could give us every single little thing we desire... but at some point we all have to be a little realistic.

what is unrealistic about asking for more classes?

They cannot and will not give us everything we want for the game, which is why they tell us to go outside of their publishing circle to get it.

and that is not a good answer for everyone... why are we arguing this in this of all threads?

And at some point we have to make a decision of what's more important to us-- not playing what we want because we don't have the time or energy to make sure what we want is 100% balanced before it even its the table... or finding what we want and spend just a little bit of time playing it and then analyzing it to make sure we find it to be a reasonable character option.

what we have come up with is each DM takes DM side (monster adventure, even full subsystems) and we ignore most player side 3pp... then we ask WotC to provide us with a full game to play

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's not how 4e works.

its weird how many people dislike 4e stuff and quote or tell me things that in no way are the 4e way of doing it.

 

[mamba]

So, If I grab a warlord I like and Jon grabs a half arcane caster he likes and Linda grabs a complex warrior she likes and Kurt is nice... he just has 3 spells he wants his cleric to have from these 2 books.... that is now 4 books for matt to review,

or Matt just says' sure, go with it, if anything comes up during play that I consider problematic, I'll let you know and we discuss / adjust it then'. Which is probably what I would do (after a quick look over it, rather than an in depth review upfront)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

or Matt just says' sure, go with it, if anything comes up during play that I consider problematic, I'll let you know and we discuss / adjust it then'. Which is probably what I would do (after a quick look over it, rather than an in depth review upfront)

I think basically 3.x, not to mention late 2e, pretty well broke GMs of any lingering assumption that if something is published it's not a hot mess. 4e redeemed WotC itself on that score but most 3PPs? I would basically assume their stuff is borked until proven otherwise. We can argue about whether GMs should be THE gatekeeper, but I would never assume I can just bring in some content to a game unreviewed.

 

[mamba]

I would never assume I can just bring in some content to a game unreviewed.

if me allowing it once means I can never adjust after I would agree, but if I can either address it when it occurs or after the session (depending on severity), then I have no problem not doing a full review firsthand, at least for the 'bigger' 3pps and not some author on DMsGuild who never did anything else

 

[GMforPowergamers]

if me allowing it once means I can never adjust after I would agree, but if I can either address it when it occurs or after the session (depending on severity), then I have no problem not doing a full review firsthand, at least for the 'bigger' 3pps and not some author on DMsGuild who never did anything else

without a review how do you know it is a "bigger" 3pps? heck, how does the player know what you consider 'bigger' without telling you and showing you??

 

[mamba]

without a review how do you know it is a "bigger" 3pps? heck, how does the player know what you consider 'bigger' without telling you and showing you??

they don't, which is why they ask in the first place. I never said they could just use it at will, I said I do not need an in-depth review, but would instead do a quick look over.

As to bigger 3pp, it has the name of the publisher and/or author on it, so for some that might already be all it takes to allow it (with the caveat of addressing things as they pop up - but that is true for WotC material as well...), others need a quick glance. We are not talking hours here, so the 'I do not have time to review three classes' feels a bit odd to me (but then my game is more 'loose' anyway and not tight tactical where it might matter more)

now remember there are atleast 4 warlords on DMsguild... so If I am the DM and Ross brings me 1, and I don;t like it, I used to just go look for 1 I did and say "how about this?" I don't have the time to look them all over.

What I am generally not doing is reviewing e.g. all Warlords and saying 'use this one', that is more work, I am just saying yay or nay for the one. If this comes up early enough in advance though, then even that is an option, as my review is not going to be so detailed that it takes so long.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

they don't, which is why they ask in the first place.

that ask is for a review... I never said how in-depth of a review... even 5 minutes if spread over 4 books is 20 minutes... if spread over 6 books it is half an hour.

What I am generally not doing is reviewing e.g. all Warlords and saying 'use this one', that is more work,

right what I would have done in college, and just out of college is exactlly what I am saying I (and my friends) no longer wish to do. We want to spend our time at table BSing and catachign up and playing not double checking builds classes feats spells from 3ppp... and away from table we are working on encounter s plot hooks and NPCs not double checking the above.

am just saying yay or nay for the one.

if it was just 1 thing, once that wouldn't be bad... but once you do 1 you open the door to being asked for more. I spend my time focusing on the what 3-5 books a year WotC puts out. how much more time would it take to do that if anytime someone wanted they could just drop "Steely dan's warlord" on me

If this comes up early enough in advance though, then even that is an option, as my review is not going to be so detailed that it takes so long.

what is early enough? We normally discus a new game while the old one still has at least a month or 2 before it ends (baring some bad endings) then we normally do a session 0 (we used to call them character creation night) anywhere from 1 to 3 weeks before we start.... I still don't have the time or energy to take on 3pp stuff

 

[mamba]

that ask is for a review... I never said how in-depth of a review... even 5 minutes if spread over 4 books is 20 minutes... if spread over 6 books it is half an hour.

no, you did not say how in-depth, but you said you have no time for it which at a minimum implies we are not talking about 30 seconds for it, and probably about more than 5 minutes too.

what is early enough? We normally discus a new game while the old one still has at least a month or 2 before it ends

that to me is early enough.

So what you are saying is that you do not have half an hour of time spread out over two weeks (close to 300 hours) or so to review some class options (and once every 6 months or so, not constantly). Ok, I mean, I cannot tell you how much time you have…
I do not expect this to be the norm however, which is why I found this ‘I do not have time to review classes’ a bit odd, ie either expected it to come up late or you spending more than a few minutes on a review

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So what you are saying is that you do not have half an hour of time spread out over two weeks (close to 300 hours) or so to review some class options (and once every 6 months or so, not constantly).

that is correct.

I mean I already am putting a bunch of hours each week into reading, writing, making NPCs, making maps, and coming up with plot hooks. I would say a better way of looking at it is, I choose to spend 20-40 hours during that 336 hours keeping up with WotC stuff, making plots and writing sceneros... that half hour I spend on 'double checking has to come out of that time... cause remember I need 100-112 hour to sleep 20-30 hours to eat I need 90 hours for work+ commute so before doing any family stuff before buying food cooking food doing laundry vacuumizing or walking dog I am using 210-232 hours of that 336 hours in two weeks... and I am planning a wedding, sometimes THAT feel like it eats 20-30 hours of that time too... oh and I can't forget doing lawn work, or watching TV shows, or spending time with my fiancé

Ok, I mean, I cannot tell you how much time you have…

I can tell you the average human sleeps 6-8 hours that is 84-112 hour in 2 weeks (again 336 hours so almost 1/3) I can tell you the average meal takes 25 mins to eat but if you cook it takes 30+ mins to cook and there are 2 of those a day for most people (if you are healthy 3) most of us work 40+ hours per week that eats up 80+ hours...

I do not expect this to be the norm however, which is why I found this ‘I do not have time to review classes’ a bit odd, ie either expected it to come up late or you spending more than a few minutes on a review

again even if we say it's 5 minutes... every 2 weeks, that is 5 minutes you aren't doing something else... that is called priority...


and as I get to the end I remember that we have to shower and go to the bathroom. We joke Ross takes at least 2 hours a day in the bathroom, and we all joke Kurt takes so long in the shower it is a crime against water... but my time most likely isn't that long...


I never realized how little time we all have


edit: I am a numbers (normally finance) guy... this is sending me down the rabbit hole of extestantial dread accounting for my time

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah, and that's why it fails.

People want psionics, not just a lazy repaint of magic.

D&D Psionics have always been one of two things:

1. Bad (have you ever tried using the 1e Psionics rules?)
2. A lazy repaint of magic designed to pad the page count

The big thing that people don't mention much is that the 5e Magic system is far closer to the 3.5 Psionic system than it is to the 3.5 Magic system. You have the augments in there by casting spells at a higher level. And you know spells and then cast them as often as you can feed them spell slots/power points. Power points which by the way are worked out on a formula based on the spell slots a wizard would have. (The Aberrant Mind of course is an actual power point class).

The main thing the aberrant mind doesn't have that the 3.5 psion did is 70 pages of shovelware "psionic" spells including such gems as Darkvision, Psionic.

People who want Psionics have psionics. People who want their class to be made special by having a little more disguise and by having reprinted spells are the ones who think the Aberrant Mind doesn't qualify.

And for the record I grew up not on D&D psionics but GURPS psionics as my supernatural psionic system. From that perspective it's obvious just how lazy a repaint D&D psionics have always been.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

D&D Psionics have always been one of two things:

1. Bad (have you ever tried using the 1e Psionics rules?)
2. A lazy repaint of magic designed to pad the page count

or in the 2e case for complete psionics... its BOTH.

contact checks for all telepathy and mental attacks and defenses.... but then I end up with spells anyway.

The big thing that people don't mention much is that the 5e Magic system is far closer to the 3.5 Psionic system than it is to the 3.5 Magic system. You have the augments in there by casting spells at a higher level. And you know spells and then cast them as often as you can feed them spell slots/power points. Power points which by the way are worked out on a formula based on the spell slots a wizard would have. (The Aberrant Mind of course is an actual power point class).

agreed