D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Zardnaar]

okay, this I gotta see explained?

Joke.


2 minute mark then next 5 minutes or so. Rundown industrial/port area 30 odd years ago. They've done the place up.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's how it's written in The Veiled Alliance, yeah. The different camps form in the wake of Abalach-re's death and the Caste System kinda goes out the window as Nobles lock themselves up in Palace-Fortresses with hired armies and the common people suffer under the Templars and Banditry in the city.

But 10 years earlier what is the city like? There's really not a -ton- of material on it in the boxed set. In fact it never mentions the Caste System or other government structure because it is very focused on convincing the DM/Reader that the main draw for adventure in Raam is that the Grand Vizier is lying about Badna.

Raam might need a tweak. It wasn't that interesting the first time around, didn't get much material and yeah rips on India a bit much.

 

[Steampunkette]

Raam might need a tweak. It wasn't that interesting the first time around, didn't get much material and yeah rips on India a bit much.

What if... I kept the caste system but made it just as weak, tenuous, and largely ignored as the religion of Badna?

There would still be people who absolutely adhere to it. The priesthood, for example, would absolutely hold to the caste system because it puts them into a position of power and privilege. And the outcastes are still recognized largely by the populace because it gives everyone someone to spit on.

But pretty much everyone else just pays it lip service? Like they only reference it when it benefits them personally, such as a merchant taking advantage of a laborer is willing to call on the Templars to enforce the caste system on that singular interaction. But then rails against the caste system when it's used against him!

 

[Shardstone]

Btw want to say that @Steampunkette should not be saying stuff like "I don't know what kind of bad games your DM ran." Just because another table used another themes for Dark Sun does not give you the right to trash talk another person's game or opinion.

 

[Steampunkette]

Btw want to say that @Steampunkette should not be saying stuff like "I don't know what kind of bad games your DM ran." Just because another table used another themes for Dark Sun does not give you the right to trash talk another person's game or opinion.

I mean, that's kind of fair?

But trying to define a setting which is centered around hope and adventure and the struggle against evil as blanketly Grim Dark with the idea that hope is a "hot take" (which is an intentionally insulting statement, based on the idea that somebody is speaking about something they don't fully understand) kind of says that somebody didn't understand the setting as it was written.

Similarly, that bigotry must be represented fully and anyone who is "easily offended" shouldn't play? Kind of goes against the setting, directly! Part of the campaign setting explicitly states that there is no significant gender difference in society. That male and female characters are found in roughly equal measure across all levels of society with no sex-based segregation of particular types of work.

Or the idea that hope and light somehow dilutes the setting? The entire setting is you fighting against a terrible and dangerous world with terrible and dangerous creatures in it because you have hope for success. Hope to change things. Because you're a hero.

But you're right that I shouldn't have impuned the DMs who ran grimdark campaigns in the setting. I should only have addressed the people who made bold claims that were directly counter to what was previously written in both second and fourth edition.

So while I feel the negativity and aggressive snark were appropriate responses to the tenor of discourse offered, I acknowledge that I was wrong to blame it on their DMs.

 

[Stormonu]

For the tithe, I'd go with F). The set amount is 1,000 but with an odd number of city-states, they squabble and barter over who has to send more (or less). Gives them both a reason to let other city-states exist (the tithe can come out of THEIR population, not mine) and to trade ("I'll contribute 50 extra sacrifices from my city in return for their weight in gold" or something similar). Could be that one of the things hanging over the Sorcerer-Kings heads is that if they pick a fight with a neighbor, Borys or the coalition of the other sorcerer-kings could declare that the offender gets to pay the excess sacrifices as compensation/war reparations.

 

[Steampunkette]

For the tithe, I'd go with F). The set amount is 1,000 but with an odd number of city-states, they squabble and barter over who has to send more (or less). Gives them both a reason to let other city-states exist (the tithe can come out of THEIR population, not mine) and to trade ("I'll contribute 50 extra sacrifices from my city in return for their weight in gold" or something similar). Could be that one of the things hanging over the Sorcerer-Kings heads is that if they pick a fight with a neighbor, Borys or the coalition of the other sorcerer-kings could declare that the offender gets to pay the excess sacrifices as compensation/war reparations.

OH.

Oh.

I like this. Particularly the stabilizing element of it.

I like this a -lot-.

 

[grimslade]

For the tithe, I'd go with F). The set amount is 1,000 but with an odd number of city-states, they squabble and barter over who has to send more (or less). Gives them both a reason to let other city-states exist (the tithe can come out of THEIR population, not mine) and to trade ("I'll contribute 50 extra sacrifices from my city in return for their weight in gold" or something similar). Could be that one of the things hanging over the Sorcerer-Kings heads is that if they pick a fight with a neighbor, Borys or the coalition of the other sorcerer-kings could declare that the offender gets to pay the excess sacrifices as compensation/war reparations.

It also brings other power groups into the Tithe. The Trade Houses have to transport any trade between the City-States and could supply slaves for favors/goods from Sorcerer Kings. It creates a much more clandestine war between the City-States, instead of massive sieges. No one wants to be weakened by an excessively heavy tithe for a failed siege. Post-Kalak Tyr would have a reason to not be wiped off the Tablelands by the rest of the SK, not just their iron mines, but the political enemies of New Tyr make handy sacrifices.

 

[Shardstone]

After reading some more of the Brazen Gambit, Templars really are straight up Warlocks. They get a few spell slots, they have a sorcerous connection with their Sorcerer-King, and they even dress in robes.

Its interesting seeing the quality of the world in a literary space. I can't help but feel that something is missing. The text makes everything in Urik come off kind of just...well, hopeless for the average person. At any moment a templar can basically kill you, and you can't do anything about it. All the water is stagnant and nasty. Melancholy is the inner spirit in the heart of virtually everyone, and the tragedy is essentially neverending for the average Athasian.

I think in a new Dark Sun setting guide, I'd like there to be more focus on rebelling against the end of the world and the sorcerer-kings and the dragon and less about having to be a bad person in a bad place.

 

[squibbles]

I have tried to avoid this thread, so as not to threadcrap. But, apologies, I couldn't help myself. (I also may have missed some things in the thread's 34 pages)

"Dark Sun doesn't have to be grimdark" strikes me as the hottest take in the whole thread.

All the accessible natural resources are spent. The ecosphere has totally collapsed, almost certainly irrevocably. The sun is entering it's red giant phase, which in the case of most stars means it will expand to consume any planets in the habitable zone. And there's virtually no way off the planet because planar travel is restricted and the crystal sphere is locked. To top it off, The Grey, the afterlife for Athasians, is an infinite expanse of nothing where you await oblivion. IIRC, it's implied that when Athas is destroyed it and everything in the Grey will be obliterated.

Athas is dead, and nothing can save it. The creatures still on Athas are the worms feasting on it's corpse.

Dark Sun makes Warhammer 40k look downright hopeful.

[...] It's a Swords and Sorcery setting modeled after a combination of Conan Films and Mad Max Movies. It's steeped in rich 80s style set up against a postapocalyptic climate change backdrop for the express intent of having a Point to tell. But like Conan and other things people often -think- are Grimdark... it's anything but. Even -without- the Surf Druids.

The core setting storyline involves a group of adventurers going from Swords and Sorcery adventures fighting the evil would-be-dragon Kalak all the way up to shutting down Rajaat in the Cerulean Storm. The fact that at least one and possibly two of the Sorcerer-Kings are going Avangion bodes really well for the setting. And while you may despise the Prism Pentad (I certainly do) it ends with Rainstorms coming back to Athas with Rajaat's defeat, implying a new age is going to come in time.

BECAUSE HOPE IS THE ENTIRE POINT.

If there was no hope in the Dark Sun setting your adventures would just be menial boring basic survival until your inevitable death because there's no point to becoming a hero and fighting the Sorcerer Kings or the Psurlons or the Caller in Darkness or whatever other dangers Athas has. [...]

Darksun=gritty not grimdark.

Two things are getting mixed up in the argument here; a gods-eye view of Dark Sun and the player-experienced part of Dark Sun.

It doesn't have to be common knowledge among the people of Athas that the sun will become a red giant and consume the planet, that every person is doomed to a gray purgatory after death, and that there is no escape from these conditions. It certainly doesn't have to be something that PCs or NPCs ever mention. All that super-bleak stuff is background fluff which shouldn't really inform the mood of Dark Sun.

Dark Sun's flavor isn't grimdark or gritty, so much as brutal. It's Barsoom (also a doomed planet, fyi), not Mork Borg or Game of Thrones.

That said, I think it's a mistake for restoring the planet to be on the table. Athas really is a dead world moving slowly towards lifelessness. The hope that's available should be to temporarily improve local circumstances--at the level of a city, village, or sub-region. It undermines the central theme of the setting--the irredeemable badness of defiling magic and selfishness of defilers--to allow the Athas to be fixed. It also shouldn't be a starting assumption that PCs are trying to make Athas a better place, there are lots of other things players might want to do if they are free to choose.

[...] Or the idea that hope and light somehow dilutes the setting? The entire setting is you fighting against a terrible and dangerous world with terrible and dangerous creatures in it because you have hope for success. Hope to change things. Because you're a hero.

But you don't have to be a hero. The setting works great for survivors, anti-heroes, and picaresques too--hope for selfish things like revenge, making a big score, or living for another day are equally valid PC motivations. Keep in mind, Conan and Mad Max, whom you referenced above, are rarely heroes; they don't usually help other people until circumstances force them to.

• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.

So, having now senselessly argued that someone is wrong on the internet, here's a hopefully more useful contribution to the thread:

You're spot on that defiling should be the default for arcane magic and that preservers should be weaker than in standard 5e. But I think the third point is mistaken. You should want there to be a wizard in the party and want that player to struggle with deciding whether to defile (...but just this once).

The central conceit of the setting is that defiling is very attactive and powerful. So, while making preserving weaker than standard 5e rules, make defiling stronger too, with rules that are simple but consequential, and that mimic in microcosm the calculus of the sorcerer kings--a clear benefit in the short term with uncertain and escalating world consequences; for example:

• When defiling, spells are upcast by one level and the caster has advantage on concentration checks.
• When preserving, spells do one die fewer of damage/healing and the caster has disadvantage on concentration checks.
• There is an escalating 1 in 20 chance (i.e. 1/20 -> 2/20 -> 3/20, etc.) each time a caster defiles that the caster develops a visible physical mark of defiling--glowing red eyes, a shimmering heat haze, blackened fingers, etc.--that imposes no penalty, but that cannot be easily removed, and which is instantly recognizable to others.