D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Sithlord]

I care about the Psion, and I dislike the Sorcerer class, so refluffing the Sorcerer would be a no-go for me.

I am hoping for a new Psion class, using the Warlock mechanics for the chassis.

How about banning the sorcerer class. But using very slightly modified mechanics of the sorcerer class with spell points for the Psion and then having subclasses based on the different discipline?

 

[Mind of tempest]

How about banning the sorcerer class. But using very slightly modified mechanics of the sorcerer class with spell points for the Psion and then having subclasses based on the different discipline?

that sounds like it would fix nothing and just make two groups of people really angry.

 

[Steampunkette]

SO! Let's talk Races.

Common
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Mul


Uncommon
Aaracokra
Halfling
Half-Elf
Half-Giant

Rare
Gith
Pterran
Thri-Kreen

Special
Wasteland Mutant

I think this array works pretty well to establish rarities. To explain the Uncommon -Adventuring- races, Aaracokra largely live in communities outside of cities, like elves, but are less likely to fall in love with a human and beget a Half-Elf. Half elves are uncommon because that's also an unusual event. Half Giants are uncommon because there just weren't a ton of Giants to go around when the Sorcerer-Kings made them but they also breed true so... y'know. More, now, than there were before. Halflings are uncommon 'cause they largely (but not exclusively) hang out in the Forest Ridge.

And then the Gith are rare 'cause there's just not a huge quantity of them, the Pterran are reclusive, and the Thri-Kreen are rarely adventurers because it doesn't generally jibe with what their needs are.

Because these common/uncommon/rare adventurer lists and are just kind of a guideline to how many eyebrows are going to lift when you roll into town with your crew. Any player can pick any of these races to play because Adventurers are special and unique characters.

I put Wasteland Mutants into their own category since regular everyday minor Wasteland Mutations are pretty common, you have to imagine. Humans with an extra finger on each hand, or elves with snake-like banding patterns on their flesh, or halflings with particularly large eyes. But the full on Wasteland Mutant Race, with the ability to be a Tiefling, Dragonborn, Drow, Etc, should only be available at DM's discretion.

But let's also talk about a few:

Racial Traits
Darkvision. It makes sense for -some- races to be evolved to have Darkvision of some kind. But not nearly the wide breadth of standard 5e. Elves are Desert-Runners who mainly move during the dim hours of the evening/morning and under the moons and stars, so it makes sense for them, and thus Half-Elves, to have Darkvision. Aaracokra and Thri-Kreen for the same reason. But the Dwarves of Athas are not underground mole people, so there's no reason for them, or Mul, to have Darkvision. Gith I'm uncertain on, because they're not Athasian Natives and Gith generally have it... so I guess that'd be okay?

This trait is actually really important for the following reasons: Athas has 2 moons, Ral and Guthay. It also has a starlit sky and barely any cloud-cover at any time of year because of the lack of Water on the planet. Pretty much every night on Athas is Dim, rather than Black. Of course shadowed places in Towns or Canyons, and the interior of ruins, are going to be pretty much pitch-black at night, and occasionally during the day, so Darkvision is still super useful for Adventurers in -that- regard as well. But this means that at night, every race with Darkvision will see the world just as well as they normally would if the sun was up.

Large Size. Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen are both large sized entities based on their descriptions... But being Large Size doesn't have a whole ton of advantages when you actually examine it in 5e. And it does come with some heavy problems, like exposing yourself to a whole mess more attacks and not getting Opportunity attacks 'til enemies leave your extended reach. It also usually increases your resource consumption, which is a big problem in a Desert environment where Water and Food are fairly scarce. So I feel like having Large characters works just fine for the setting with a couple of caveats. Thri-Kreen should not be able to use large weapons (They're basically Long rather than Big) and should be able to Squeeze and Consume like medium creatures because they're skinny AF. And second "Large" weapons should deal more damage, but I'm not sure doubling is the way to go. A Large Longsword is basically a Medium Greatsword, after all. What are your thoughts?

Focus. Dwarves get Focuses. They Focus on a task. A Focus-Task must take at -least- 1 week to complete, and while focused they essentially get no sleep while working toward that Focus. They lack the need for sleep and can just be awake all the time planning how they'll deal with their focus, working on their focus, and generally just centering themselves around it. Once it is complete, they'll find a new focus to start in on after getting some much needed rest. A dwarf that dies while focused becomes a Wasteland Banshee that haunts their focus. This is going to be difficult to model in 5e, but giving them a set of 3d8 Focus Dice to use that recover on a long rest would be a decent way to do it? These 3d8 can be used on skill and ability checks related to their Focus, or on saving throws against effects that would stop them from completing their Focus. A dwarf Focused on recovering an item from a tomb would have great leeway on how to use those 3d8...

Racial Spellcasting. While none of the "Standard" races of Athas have any kind of racial spellcasting, certain Wasteland Mutants might have it. Such as Drow or Tieflings. Because of the nature of how they gain this magic I'd be tempted to call it Arcane rather than Psionic in many cases, opening these characters up to the possibility of Defiling with their racial traits. But could also totally understand making such a choice a Flexible Option for any Wasteland Mutant. So that some "Drow" have psionic Faerie Fire.

Flight. Pretty dang useful as a racial trait... Especially in an area where the landscape is largely open and flying above your target means you have a clear line of fire. But there are 2 problems with flying that a character with flying must recognize. Firstly, there's no cover to be had from other attackers and if you fall from a great height while at 0hp you're almost certainly going to die. So it's best to land when fighting, perhaps somewhere high up to retain your height advantage but get cover. And second, there's no cover to be had from the Sun, which means you'll be exposing yourself to greater fatigue and danger from the environment.

 

[Don Durito]

One thing I really liked from the 4e take on Dark Sun was the idea that Preservers and Defilers had different flavours. (Although this was in part built on the class differences in 2e).

However, you do of course want Preservers to have the temptation to defile.

But I think I'd implement the different paths through two different subclasses, which ultimately move towards Avangions and Dragons. Give the magic they tend to use and their spell list a different flavour. I would give Preservers access to healing magic - it actually fits the fiction and themes, and tone down.

I'd also have a lot of spells that can only be used by defiling. (You should never be able to cast Animate Dead without defiling!).

 

[Steampunkette]

One thing I really liked from the 4e take on Dark Sun was the idea that Preservers and Defilers had different flavours. (Although this was in part built on the class differences in 2e).

However, you do of course want Preservers to have the temptation to defile.

But I think I'd implement the different paths through two different subclasses, which ultimately move towards Avangions and Dragons. Give the magic they tend to use and their spell list a different flavour. I would give Preservers access to healing magic - it actually fits the fiction and themes, and tone down.

I'd also have a lot of spells that can only be used by defiling. (You should never be able to cast Animate Dead without defiling!).

I -really- like the idea of "Black Magics" always being Defilement, that's a -great- idea, Don! I'll add that to my version of the setting 100%!

For the Avangion/Dragon thing... I really feel like that should be handled through an external system separate from classes, same with Defiling, so the temptation, and the power, is -always- available. Sort of a "Boons" method, maybe? Maybe Ritual Magic with some really strict requirements that provides advancement down the track...

As to healing magic: It just doesn't fit. I get the impetus and you're not the first person to go for it, but Preserving isn't healing it's just "Not Hurting". It's also one of the defining traits of Arcane spellcasting in general that they don't get healing magic.

It also ensures that Templars (Paladins who swear oaths to the Sorcerer-Kings) have the market cornered on healing magic within cities/communities. Druids are rare and aloof, and Water Clerics lead cults out in the wastes. Having arcane spellcasters flinging around healing would undermine this. Especially since all Arcanists (Defiler and Preserver alike) are viewed with great anger/hatred from the people of Athas for the damage that was done to their world.

Having Preservers heal people without causing any damage to the world would make it really hard to play up the Arcane-Distrust within the setting.

 

[Steampunkette]

OH! @Don Durito have you looked at Grim Hollow at all?

Their "Transformation" mechanic could be the -perfect- way to handle the Evangion/Dragon ascension path outside of character class!

In that system you gain your first tier of Transformation between 1 and 4. You gain all of the benefits and the one downside of your transformation at that level. You gain your second tier somewhere between 5 and 10, then 11 and 16, and then 16 and 20.

At the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tiers you instead gain 1 benefit and 1 penalty.

We could swap things around so that you're gaining the single boon and flaw at tier 1, and get "All the Boons" at tier 3 or 4 to avoid overloading low-tier characters with power.

And then the Ascension to one version or the other happens at level 20+.

 

[Steampunkette]

Someone used Inkarnate to redraw the entire Athas Map without -any- landmark names.

This could be super-useful for someone running a Dark Sun Game on a virtual tabletop with the ability to add text to the map layer... then you could slowly reveal what things are to your players as the game goes on.

 

[Mind of tempest]

SO! Let's talk Races.

Common
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Mul


Uncommon
Aaracokra
Halfling
Half-Elf
Half-Giant

Rare
Gith
Pterran
Thri-Kreen

Special
Wasteland Mutant

I think this array works pretty well to establish rarities. To explain the Uncommon -Adventuring- races, Aaracokra largely live in communities outside of cities, like elves, but are less likely to fall in love with a human and beget a Half-Elf. Half elves are uncommon because that's also an unusual event. Half Giants are uncommon because there just weren't a ton of Giants to go around when the Sorcerer-Kings made them but they also breed true so... y'know. More, now, than there were before. Halflings are uncommon 'cause they largely (but not exclusively) hang out in the Forest Ridge.

And then the Gith are rare 'cause there's just not a huge quantity of them, the Pterran are reclusive, and the Thri-Kreen are rarely adventurers because it doesn't generally jibe with what their needs are.

Because these common/uncommon/rare adventurer lists and are just kind of a guideline to how many eyebrows are going to lift when you roll into town with your crew. Any player can pick any of these races to play because Adventurers are special and unique characters.

I put Wasteland Mutants into their own category since regular everyday minor Wasteland Mutations are pretty common, you have to imagine. Humans with an extra finger on each hand, or elves with snake-like banding patterns on their flesh, or halflings with particularly large eyes. But the full on Wasteland Mutant Race, with the ability to be a Tiefling, Dragonborn, Drow, Etc, should only be available at DM's discretion.

But let's also talk about a few:

Racial Traits
Darkvision. It makes sense for -some- races to be evolved to have Darkvision of some kind. But not nearly the wide breadth of standard 5e. Elves are Desert-Runners who mainly move during the dim hours of the evening/morning and under the moons and stars, so it makes sense for them, and thus Half-Elves, to have Darkvision. Aaracokra and Thri-Kreen for the same reason. But the Dwarves of Athas are not underground mole people, so there's no reason for them, or Mul, to have Darkvision. Gith I'm uncertain on, because they're not Athasian Natives and Gith generally have it... so I guess that'd be okay?

This trait is actually really important for the following reasons: Athas has 2 moons, Ral and Guthay. It also has a starlit sky and barely any cloud-cover at any time of year because of the lack of Water on the planet. Pretty much every night on Athas is Dim, rather than Black. Of course shadowed places in Towns or Canyons, and the interior of ruins, are going to be pretty much pitch-black at night, and occasionally during the day, so Darkvision is still super useful for Adventurers in -that- regard as well. But this means that at night, every race with Darkvision will see the world just as well as they normally would if the sun was up.

Large Size. Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen are both large sized entities based on their descriptions... But being Large Size doesn't have a whole ton of advantages when you actually examine it in 5e. And it does come with some heavy problems, like exposing yourself to a whole mess more attacks and not getting Opportunity attacks 'til enemies leave your extended reach. It also usually increases your resource consumption, which is a big problem in a Desert environment where Water and Food are fairly scarce. So I feel like having Large characters works just fine for the setting with a couple of caveats. Thri-Kreen should not be able to use large weapons (They're basically Long rather than Big) and should be able to Squeeze and Consume like medium creatures because they're skinny AF. And second "Large" weapons should deal more damage, but I'm not sure doubling is the way to go. A Large Longsword is basically a Medium Greatsword, after all. What are your thoughts?

Focus. Dwarves get Focuses. They Focus on a task. A Focus-Task must take at -least- 1 week to complete, and while focused they essentially get no sleep while working toward that Focus. They lack the need for sleep and can just be awake all the time planning how they'll deal with their focus, working on their focus, and generally just centering themselves around it. Once it is complete, they'll find a new focus to start in on after getting some much needed rest. A dwarf that dies while focused becomes a Wasteland Banshee that haunts their focus. This is going to be difficult to model in 5e, but giving them a set of 3d8 Focus Dice to use that recover on a long rest would be a decent way to do it? These 3d8 can be used on skill and ability checks related to their Focus, or on saving throws against effects that would stop them from completing their Focus. A dwarf Focused on recovering an item from a tomb would have great leeway on how to use those 3d8...

Racial Spellcasting. While none of the "Standard" races of Athas have any kind of racial spellcasting, certain Wasteland Mutants might have it. Such as Drow or Tieflings. Because of the nature of how they gain this magic I'd be tempted to call it Arcane rather than Psionic in many cases, opening these characters up to the possibility of Defiling with their racial traits. But could also totally understand making such a choice a Flexible Option for any Wasteland Mutant. So that some "Drow" have psionic Faerie Fire.

Flight. Pretty dang useful as a racial trait... Especially in an area where the landscape is largely open and flying above your target means you have a clear line of fire. But there are 2 problems with flying that a character with flying must recognize. Firstly, there's no cover to be had from other attackers and if you fall from a great height while at 0hp you're almost certainly going to die. So it's best to land when fighting, perhaps somewhere high up to retain your height advantage but get cover. And second, there's no cover to be had from the Sun, which means you'll be exposing yourself to greater fatigue and danger from the environment.

more people have seen and worked with a kreen than a halfling as kreen live nearly everywhere.

 

[grimslade]

Thri-Kreen are core to Dark Sun. They are the inheritor species of the Burnt World of Athas. They need to be a PC lineage.
Arcane should have no access to healing. The problems for Preservers are two-fold, they are lumped in with Defilers because they are both casters and they are weaker than Defilers without any benefit (other than not destroying what little life is left). Magic is destructive, it is anathema to life on Athas, healing doesn't fit the theme. Having Templars have access to healing is one of the ways Sorcerer-Kings stay in power.
Wasteland Mutants are a great way to incorporate non-athasian lineages. I would convert any lineage arcane abilities to psionic. Mutants will be persecuted enough without being defilers as well.

 

[Steampunkette]

Thri-Kreen will be core race (I'm actually just working on Half-Giants, now). Like I'm statting out all of these races, one after another after another.

But they're "Rare" as adventurers, not as People. It has nothing to do with how populous they are, just how commonly they turn their very short lives toward adventuring. (Seriously, most of them don't live to see 30!)

It's why the PHB Races go Dwarf > Elf > Halfling > Human > Dragonborn > Gnome > Half-Elf > Half-Orc > Tiefling instead of just being in alphabetical order. Because it's meant to show that the races after Dragonborn are less common than the Primary 4. They're still core races in the PHB, just less common.