D&D 4E What would you want to see in 4e?

[Ethernaut]

For example, I would like to see:
* Armor as Damage Reduction
* Spell point casting system
* Clear and concise instructions on how to create balanced game mechanics like feats, magic items, prestige classes, etc.

Amen to all of the above. Additionally, it would be nice to have a couple of options for magic. It would be nice if the game could support a low-magic/creepy ritual magic game using suggestions in the core books.

 

[Ethernaut]

no classesd, I want a point based system

Never happen... but it would be awesome.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

no classesd, I want a point based system

Never happen... but it would be awesome.

Why turn D&D into HERO? Just go play HERO.

 

[Crothian]

Why turn D&D into HERO? Just go play HERO.

There are many point based systems that are not Hero. And if I wanted that I'd play my copy of Hero Fantasy.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I always mention HERO because HERO makes for a more D&D-like point-based game than other major point-based systems, like frex GURPS.

The point is this, though: if you want to play a point-based game, what's stopping you? There are dozens of them out there. Why take D&D away from people who are happy with its being a class/level-based game?

 

[Crothian]

I always mention HERO because HERO makes for a more D&D-like point-based game than other major point-based systems, like frex GURPS.

The point is this, though: if you want to play a point-based game, what's stopping you? There are dozens of them out there. Why take D&D away from people who are happy with its being a class/level-based game?

Well, first you are giving me a whole lot more power over the new edition (if there is one) then I have. The thread asks a question, all I'm doing is answering it. Now, if I were a line developer over at Wizards or something I can understand your concern. But as it is I'm not actually taking anything away from anybody, I just don't have that ability.

 

[Pants]

First thing I want in 4e D&D?

- I want the Core Setting of Greyhawk GUTTED from the Core Rules. I want the game to be as modular as possible, with guidelines in the DMG for running lower powered games, steampunk games, high powered ultra magic games, or even no magic games. Notes would be included that would stress options that the DM and Players could add to the game to make it more flavorful. Extremely modular versions of the races would be included along with example Races statted out for different games. Example Deities would be included for those who don't want to create their own.

With that out of the way...
- Advice on how to create your own rules-based material (DMG).
- Advice on how to run good games (DMG).
- More High End Feats that actually reward truly specialized fighters (PHB).
- Advice on how to roleplay (not 'rules' for roleplaying, but just advice on roleplaying and the different game types out there) (PHB/DMG).
- A reworked CR system with rules for scaling it for different campaign types (DMG).
- Less of a focus on miniature combat (PHB).
- Rules for doing stylish action maneuvers or for creating your own (PHB), sort of like a stunt system.
- Magic and Clerics toned down (PHB).
- More manageable High Level Gaming options (DMG).
- Optional rules for making magic 'dangerous' (DMG).
- Optional 'spell point' rules for magic or some other systems (DMG).
- Advice and maybe rules for running mass combat games (DMG).
- A Turn Undead system with a more unified resolution mechanic (PHB).
- Clerical Spheres (PHB).
- Less feats like 'Dodge' that require players and DM's to remember which opponent it's affecting (PHB).
- Every class should have more skills and more feats. Up the number of feats and skills (PHB).
- Multiclassing casters should be fixed, not patched (like the MyT and EK) (PHB).
- Include options for nonspellcasting Bards, Rangers, and Paladins (PHB).

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Well, first you are giving me a whole lot more power over the new edition (if there is one) then I have. The thread asks a question, all I'm doing is answering it. Now, if I were a line developer over at Wizards or something I can understand your concern. But as it is I'm not actually taking anything away from anybody, I just don't have that ability.

But you're saying you would if you could. I'm saying I think you're mean.

 

[Kelleris]

Spells shifted to a mix & match, effects-based system that scales in power, to eliminate the need for 800 different, individual spell listings. Create core spell types instead (like character classes for spells, if you will) that can be individually modified to create specific spells. So, for example, magic missile isn't a specific spell, it's a damage spell with specific mods.

I would be vehemently against this. One of the things I like the most about D&D are the cool spells, like Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion or Prismatic Spray. In an effects-based spell system, you'll almost never see spells like that.

I agree with Staffan here. I haven't got a lot of interest in wish-listing (game works fine the way it is, I'm happy), but a GURPSy mix-and-match system would be very close to a deal-breaker for me. If anything, I'd like more spellcasting traditions in the core rules, though there is the little matter of space to consider...

EDIT: And making the game point-based and classless would kill D&D for me too.

 

[Steverooo]

For example, I would like to see:
* Armor as Damage Reduction

Done, as an optional rule, is it not?

* Spell point casting system

As an optional rule...

* Cutting back on the number of core classes

There's only one way that I'd want to see this: Making the Sorcerer & Wizard the same class, again (see below).

* Cleat and concise instructions on how to create balanced game mechanics like feats, magic items, prestige classes, etc.

That would be great!

============================

I'd like to see ALL casters become Spontaneous (and thus Wizard & Sorcerer reintegrated, as that's about the only difference - give the Sorcerers the Meta-Magic Feats).

I'd like to see more DCs for common tasks included, in the skills, with lower DCs. Some will be higher, surely, but I want to see the lower ones, especially... Finding drinkable water, DC:10 Survival. Setting a simple snare, DC:2 Survival. Setting a more complex snare, that lifts a critter off its feet, when it goes off, DC:15 Survival. Making a fire without flint & steel (Fireboard & Bowdrill, for instance): DC:15 Survival. Finding Food & Water in the wild, while moving your full normal movement rate, DC:35 Survival (I believe that this is in the Epic Level Handbook, not sure on the DC). To treat snakebite, DC:20 Heal (and the reduction in poison damage, if successful). Things like that...

An explanation of how Knowledge (Arcana) & Spellcraft are any different, or roll them into one skill. Perhaps add in Concentration, as well. Allow a roll to determine what Magic Items do (perhaps, say, DC10 + 1/1,000 GP price)?

Changing the Trapmaking rules, in the DMG. One week, and 1,000 GP/CR of the trap may work well in town, but it is ridiculous for deadfalls, limb traps, pits, and snares. A free, faster way to make these (mechanically) simple survival traps, using the survival skill, should be included. All of these should be DC:15 or less (and, again, a Simple Snare about DC:2)! Allow the use of Survival OR Trapmaking (for the Rogues/Bards), for these types, only. To build a bear-trap, in the woods, takes the week and 1,000 GP steel jaws/springs, and the Trapmaking skill. IMHO, this distinction already exists, in game (See the Ranger's Detect Snares and Pits spell)!

Changes to the Magic Items pricing, making Cantrip/Orison Magic Items more inline, cost-wise, with their modern-day equivalents... Cigarette lighter? 1,000 GP! (At-will use of the Firefinger Cantrip). A Compass? 1,000 GP! (At-will use of the Know Direction Cantrip). A Water-Purifier? 1,000 GP! (At-will use of the Purify Food & Drink Cantrip). A Flashlight? WAY TOO MUCH! (See Everburning Torch!) Oh well, at least you don't hafta buy batteries!

All classes need more skill, and MOST need more knowledge... Background skill points would solve PART of that problem, but not all of it. I'd like to see skills divided into Primary, Secondary, and Unrelated, for each class. Primary skills, you get one rank/level, in addition to the four-or-so skill points that you already get. Secondary, you get one rank/even class level. Unrelated, you get to buy Cross-Class, with your current skill points, if you want them.

Fighters, again, should have access to Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), and Knowledge (Local). Knowledge (History) covers wars fought in the past, and thus Strategy & Tactics. Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) covers castle fortifications, sapping, etc. Knowledge (Local) covers the law (which the Fighters will probably be the ones enforcing), as well as the best pubs to hang out in, after work, etc. Also, 5+ ranks of Knowledge (History) grants a +2 Synergy Bonus to Bardic Knowledge, and old Fighters tended to become Bards!

Rope Use is still seeing too little use, as a skill. I again suggest getting rid of it. Cover hitting your target with a grapnel with BAB. Just assume the PCs can tie knots...

Get rid of Ride (Horse), Ride (Dog), etc. Ride is Ride... Just give a -2 Circumstance Bonus to mounts the PCs aren't used to riding, until they are. -5 for "unusuak gait" (Bears, etc.).

I, too, would like to see a "Defense = BAB" rule, making Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers the hardest to hit, in combat. Also, I think 1/2 Defense should apply to missile weapons (and maybe twice shield/cover/concealment bonuses). You don't have to dodge a bullet, just the hand-eye coordination of the guy slinging it at you! The Monk's BAB is lower, but he also gets bonuses to AC & To-Hit... (not sure how well that balances out... check that).

IMHO, no class should have fewer than 4 skill points/level. Give the poor Fighter & Wizard some more! They can spend them Cross-Class, if nothing else! (Wizards are SUPPOSED to be smart!)

Give Rangers back at least the Medium Armor Proficiency... They are penalised too heavily for meagre spell use! They are worse warriors than Barbarians... and Bards! This just seems wrong, to me! (Besides, Medium Armour has a built-in Penalty, in that it lowers speed, and gives a penalty to all stealth (Jump, Climb, Swim, etc.) skills, and negates the Combat Path Feats... that should be enough)! Betters spell would be nice, too (Again, why was Waterbreathing removed? Rangers, the Far-Travellers, can no longer go Into the Deep?) They get only one spell from the Travel and Trickery Domains?

Speaking of which, a spell-update on which are affected how, under-water. This is missing from Stormwrack, and BELIEVE ME, it has been noticed! The PHB has a good start on this, but... Was Airy Water removed? (I didn't see it - and I looked!)

Rangers also need some more work on their Favored Enemy ability. Again, if a Ranger selects FE: Outside (Evil), by the current RAW (Rules As Written), they will generally be unable to know anything about them, as Knowledge (Planes) is not a class skill! Same for FE: Undead & Knowledge (Religion). Same for FE: Humanoids (Evil) & Knowledge (Local). Same for FE: Dragons & Knowledge (Arcana). When a Ranger takes a FE, (s)he should get the appropriate Knowledge skill as a Class skill, and get to add the FE bonus to the appropriate Knowledge skill, being treated as skilled, even if they aren't. They are the ones who should know the powers and weaknesses of their Favored Enemies. As it stands, now, a Ranger with a +10 bonus vs. Outsiders (Evil) has to take a level of Knowledge (Planes) Cross-Class to even be able to ATTEMPT knowing anything about them!

Re-do (or just get rid of) Exotic Weapons! Feats are just too few to make these worthwhile. It seems to me that most of them could be done in a better manner... Bastard Sword, for example: Anyone with Martial Weapons Proficiency can use it, Two-Handed, at no penalty (RAW, now); anyone with 13+ STR can use it one-handed, with no penalty (change). Remove it from Exotic Weapons, and call it Martial, with 13+ STR required to use it one-handed. Dire Flail? Make it Martial, requiring TWF rules (those with Martial WP already have access to the Heavy & Light Flails; now all they need is the TWF Feat chain). A "Special" weapon that incorporates the Hand- and Throwing Axes? Just require proficiency with both! A special polearm that has a small shield in the middle, and a spear-blade on each end? It is a simple weapon, TWF rules, and also requires Shield Use Proficiency! Seems to me that this is much easier than the current system, which only Fighters get much use out of!...

No more empty levels! EVERY class should get SOMETHING for going up a level (and preferably something new, not just an upping of a previous ability). Fighters can get a choice of a new class skill (such as adding Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) at higher levels, when they would be encountering Barons & Kings). Druids & Monks won't need many (their levels are pretty full). All other classes should have flavorful abilities, or "Mini-Feats" added, which need not affect combat, at all. Allowing PCs to gain one major power/level would, IMHO, make all of the Prestige Class clutter GO AWAY (and THAT would be a GOOD thing)!

Get rid of Druid's Nature Sense, and give them back the 1e abilities to determine fresh water, and identify any species of (normal) plant. Druids should have these abilities, even if they are DC:10 Survival and DC10 + HD) Knowledge (Nature). The ability to always recognize fresh water isn't all that powerful, and the ability to know when something is a plant-monster (but not what it is) isn't all that bad, either. Their uses are just too limited. The Rogue already has a Special Ability (Feat!) that lets him Take 10 on any class skill! Telling fresh water isn't any harder, IMHO, and Take 20 on plants not all that powerful. Make Wild Shape (and Polymorph!) understandable. (What Qualities and/or Abilities are gotten, and which aren't.) Make Tiny-sized creatures available from the level where they get Wild Shape, on... there are too few low-HD creatures to choose from, already.

Re-add in the Beast Category... Beasts are INT 1-2 (or however Animals are redefined, since we all know that many have IQs of better than 20!) made up of parts of different natural animals... Thus, Griffins, Hippogriffs, and Moorcock's Creatures of Matik (Vulture-headed Lions) would all be Beasts, as long as their INTs were low enough. Awakened creatures would still be Magical Beasts, as are Giant Eagles... Owlbears I'd have to look up!

Try to do SOMETHING with Knowledges & Skills that don't make PCs look (and their players feel like) idiots who can't do anything... Even "Take 10" is little help, at first level! PLEASE CHANGE THAT! More skills and Knowledges, and allowing Knowledge skills to be used, untrained, would fix most of that... Background skills, or Background Skill Packages, in conjunction with that, might solve it.

I, too, would like to see combat going back to a faster form. Two attacks/round, maximum, based upon BAB (more with Haste, TWF, Speed weapons, etc). No more Ride-By, Fly-By, Spring Attacks, & Shot-On-the-Run. I'd like to see a movement system that incorporates Initiative, Movement, AND Attacks.

Get rid of Attacks of Opportunity. Keep the Improved _ Feats that add +4 to Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Bull Rush, whatever, and increase the damage on Improved Unarmed Strike. When someone makes an attack, they can make any type.

Skill Focus _ should allow +3 to one skill, or +2/+2 to two. Then list Sneaky, Investigator, Deft Hands, etc, etc, ad nauseum in a table under Skill Focus.

Re-do Meta-Magic, or at least give us an alternate system. I believe that the Bard already has the start of one...

Do something with Clerics... The best thing that I can think of is to leave the PHB Cleric as is, and make Priests a new class, in other products. Priests of Thor should have all the Armour & Shield Proficiencies of a Fighter, use the Hammer, and have Storm and Warfare spells. One idea is to stop Clerics at sixth level, having them enter a Priest of _ Class. In any case, Priests should be individualized, by Race, Culture, Beliefs, etc. Priests of the Spider would Ride (Spider), have immunity to poison, use nets in combat, still have heavy armor, probably not use shields, and have special spells like Command Spiders (Vermin) which other Priests don't have access to.

Priests should have restricted spells, as well. Thor's Priests (nor the Spider's) will be throwing fire-based spells. Gruumsh's shouldn't be using "pansy little elf-bows"! Followers of the Knave of Swords shouldn't be using anything else! Followers of the Catlord should be using claws (even if they have to forge them out of metal).

So, changing the armour, shields, weapons, and spells allowed or disallowed for each deity should do a lot. Keep Druids pretty much as they are. From there, add notes on worship, special powers granted (Spider's Priests get Immunity to Poison, Thor's get access to Lightning Bolt as a Divine spell, as well as proficiency & Specialization with the hammer), etc. Also do for skills what is done for spells. Disallow some, and allow others to be bought at two ranks/one point (or as class skills, if Cross-Class). Spider teaches Climb and Craft (Net-Making) at half price.

I still think Wizards/Sorcerers need the Sleight of Hand skill, as well as Decipher Script. The latter skill also needs a lower DC to figure out what language a writing is in, too... DC:10 to know, if it's a common language, DC:15 if it's ancient and no longer commonly used, and DC:20+ (as an Impossible task) if it's not from this world, and you've never seen it, before. (Also, something needs to be done with Decipher Script vs. Druidic... Can the Rogue figure out what the Druid's books say?) Wizzes should be able to do Sleight of Hand magic tricks (like hide a key), and tell you what an ancient Tome of magic says.

Fill some of those empty levels with a new language proficiency, maybe?

How about some new Feats that let you do other things, besides combat? Feats that add new abilities? How about taking some of the current Feats OUT, and making them skill checks, like in 2e, again? Mounted Combat's abilities should just be a DC:15 Ride check, for instance!

Keep Alignment, Class Alignment restrictions, and the Divine/Arcane magic divide, but move Bards back to the Divine side, where they were in 1e.

Fix the Multiclassing system. Add together the HP & Skill Points of the two or more classes, then divide by two (or more), ROUNDING DOWN. All Feats, abilities, etc., are received from both (or more) classes, and both classes skills are accessible. Paladins and Monks can Multiclass, without problems, as long as they remain Lawful (and Good, for Paladins). For spellcasters, within one magic type, Non-Spellcaster classes add 1/2 caster level/level, and semi-spellcasters (Bards, Paladins, & Rangers) add 3/4. All fractions are rounded down. A NG Cleric/Druid would get (1+1)/2 = 1 caster level per multiclassed level. A Fighter/Mage/Thief would get (1/2 + 1 + 1/2)/3 = 2/3 caster level, and be unable to cast spells until second level (but have Fighter/Thief abilities, and Mage skills, if desired). Across the Arcane/Divine divide, no bonus for caster level should be given (use the current multiclass system). Once multiclassing is selected, it remains in effect for as long as the character does (no more dipping into a class for one level). A 10% experience penalty/level after the first, or some other balancing mechanic, may be necessary...

Fix Darkness so that it is actually dark, and get rid of the stupid "darkvision" (or whatever it was called) that lets certain types of monsters see within the confines of the spell. It is cheap, and silly, IMHO, and I have always considered it GM-Cheating.

Get rid of the "Cover or Concealment is needed to Hide" rule. Give those with Hide the Camouflage ability, automatically. Give Rangers & Rogues the "Hide in Plain Sight" class ability at the same level (and somewhere around sixth, as that is where Shadowdancers get it)!

Get rid of the (IMHO) ridiculous rule against being able to use backstabbing or sneak attacking someone in cover or concealment. Rogues do it in the Shadows! That's where sneak attacking should take place! LET IT!

Give both Paladins and Rangers Orisons/Cantrips, beginning at first level, and advancing through fourth, like the Bard... Two @ 1rst, three @ 2nd, four @ third, and five @ fourth (or as a Wizard gets them... I don't have my book handy). Paladins should get the same list as Clerics, and Rangers get those available to the Druid & Wizard. Cure Minimal Wounds and Mending aren't going to kill anyone. Every other spellcasting class has them (including Bards), and I see no (good!) reason to leave the other two Semi-spellcasters out!

And give Rangers access to Dispel Magic! They are the only spellcasting class without it! (Why?)

Make tracking do more than just determine "Duh! Dey went Dattaway!" A DC to identify the critter from its tracks or scat (based upon how common the creature is), a DC to identify what types of creatures live in a particular area, a task to determine size and weight of the creature from a track, to identify a track as one previously seen before, etc.... This can ALL be done by a fairly simple system of "beating the DC to track" by a certain number (20 or less, depending upon task and commonality of creature). I have such a system, which I use in my games.

Fix the discrepancy between the way that PCs fight, and monsters fight... If a Troll attacks my PC with a Claw/Claw/Bite, he gets two Claw attacks at his BAB, and a Bite at BAB-5. If my PC attacks him back, with his fists, he gets two or more attacks (depending upon level), at BAB-6/BAB-10, each of which CAN (if the Troll has Combat Reflexes) provoke an Attack of Opportunity! Even with Two-Weapon Fighting, he's still at BAB-2/BAB-2. THIS IS NOT FAIR! Furthermore, the Troll can take Multi-Attack, and get all his attacks at BAB, while no such PC ability exists! Same for Pounce, etc. Let's make combat fair between monsters and PCs, shall we? Let TWFers, at least, attack like the Troll, with full BAB. Open up Multi-Attack, Pounce, and other such to PCs who meet the requirements.

I'm sure I can think of more, later!