D&D 4E What would you want to see in 4E?
howandwhy99
Adventurer
Ability Score modifiers optional
4 core classes and all other 20 level or less classes as optional Prestige classes (even starting at 1st)
3 core races (human, elf, dwarf) and other races optional
Minimum and maximum scores to qualify for demi-human races -- racial ability adjustments optional
Feats optional
Skills optional
Alignment optional
Complete removal of the d20 combat system for the easier original D&D combat system. The current has far too fine a granularity and mixed level parties are not fun under it.
Spell statistics optional
Magic item statistics optional
All spells and magic items optional
Creature Type rules optional
Separate character balancing based on Level AND "Item wealth". Meaning, level+wealth=CR, or CL or what have you.
ELs based on NPC strategy and tactics as well as abilities. Use Examples
Optional addition of an easy mass combat system
Optional addition of simple world creation rules
Optional addition of simplified 3-d combat system
Optional addition of simplified surface, water, underwater, aerial, and mixed mass combat system rules
Optional addition of realm rulership rules
Include multiple Dice Mechanics with examples of relevant simulations (i.e. flat single rolls (d20), parabolic dice pool rolls, multi-variable rolls, etc.)
Every additional product as supplement-only or as rule clarification. Like all the optionals so far suggested.
Player books detailing ingenious play, not character construction.
DM/Referee books detailing multiple styles of play and facilitation of these styles
- Optional addition of morale and reputation scores
& more I can't think of right now
4 core classes and all other 20 level or less classes as optional Prestige classes (even starting at 1st)
3 core races (human, elf, dwarf) and other races optional
Minimum and maximum scores to qualify for demi-human races -- racial ability adjustments optional
Feats optional
Skills optional
Alignment optional
Complete removal of the d20 combat system for the easier original D&D combat system. The current has far too fine a granularity and mixed level parties are not fun under it.
Spell statistics optional
Magic item statistics optional
All spells and magic items optional
Creature Type rules optional
Separate character balancing based on Level AND "Item wealth". Meaning, level+wealth=CR, or CL or what have you.
ELs based on NPC strategy and tactics as well as abilities. Use Examples
Optional addition of an easy mass combat system
Optional addition of simple world creation rules
Optional addition of simplified 3-d combat system
Optional addition of simplified surface, water, underwater, aerial, and mixed mass combat system rules
Optional addition of realm rulership rules
Include multiple Dice Mechanics with examples of relevant simulations (i.e. flat single rolls (d20), parabolic dice pool rolls, multi-variable rolls, etc.)
Every additional product as supplement-only or as rule clarification. Like all the optionals so far suggested.
Player books detailing ingenious play, not character construction.
DM/Referee books detailing multiple styles of play and facilitation of these styles
- Optional addition of morale and reputation scores
& more I can't think of right now
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Droogie
Explorer
I'd like to see the "faster, better, more refined" design philosophy of SAGA to go into 4e, and based on the enthusiasm for this idea, I think we'll get our way. It would make the game less daunting for new players, bring back some of the ones we've lost, and make it easier to write game prep software.
I forgot some of my personal pet peeves:
1) Plain language rules drafting- say what you mean, mean what you say- coupled with someone paying attention to internal consistency.
There are too many examples in 3.x where the rules language itself causes confusion, usually because the writers tried to be sophisticated in their use of language.
Better drafting would end a LOT of rules debates.
2) Better unarmed combat rules, esp. rules for integrating unarmed combat with weapons. Most smaller weapons have formal techniques that involve combining the weapons with unarmed strikes & grapples.
I was reminded of this by watching a few martial arts shows today, including the episode of "Human Weapon" about Escrima fighting, and a couple of shows about knife-fighting- its a lot deadlier than people think. A quick grapple followed by a carving (not stabbing) strike from thigh to neck and it could all be over.
1) Plain language rules drafting- say what you mean, mean what you say- coupled with someone paying attention to internal consistency.
There are too many examples in 3.x where the rules language itself causes confusion, usually because the writers tried to be sophisticated in their use of language.
Better drafting would end a LOT of rules debates.
2) Better unarmed combat rules, esp. rules for integrating unarmed combat with weapons. Most smaller weapons have formal techniques that involve combining the weapons with unarmed strikes & grapples.
I was reminded of this by watching a few martial arts shows today, including the episode of "Human Weapon" about Escrima fighting, and a couple of shows about knife-fighting- its a lot deadlier than people think. A quick grapple followed by a carving (not stabbing) strike from thigh to neck and it could all be over.
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AFGNCAAP
First Post
Well, I think I mentioned what I'd like to see in previous incarnations of this topic, though I think a few of my original ideas may have changed.
What I'd like to see:
Fewer core classes. Ideally, I think there should only be a few core classes: either 1 core class per each attribute (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), or just 3 core classes that cover the basics: combat & feat-focused, special ability & skill-focused, and magic/power-using focused. Each class should have a few set class skills, and the rest should be selectable (much as it is with the Generic Classes in UA).
Personally, I'd go for the 3-core class variant, esp. with the option to use or not use different categories of magic/power (arcane magic, divine magic, & psionic power, for example).
Go the d20 Modern route and use Talent trees to allow characters to select the style of character they want to play. Also, none of these core classes should have Alignment restrictions--that should just be a feature found with PrCs.
Change some core classes to prestige classes. Specific class concepts like knights, monks, paladins, druids, (the armed & armored) clerics, soulknives, beguilers, dread necromancers, rangers, spellcasting bards, samurai, & the like should be prestige classes instead of core classes. Any class with a "fixed" theme, certain requirements, or the like should be a PrC option. However, have the limited core classes still be viable selections on their own (unlike the required multiclassing of d20 Modern).
More "variable" racial abilities. Elements of a PC race that are based mainly on biology (like ability score modifiers, special vision or sense-based skill bonuses, etc.) should remain as is.
Culturally-based racial abilities, like the elves' free proficiencies with rapiers, longswords, and bows, or the dwarves' bonuses to Craft and Appraise, should be selectable. Allow for some degree of choice by letting a player select a culturally-based bonus feat from a limited list for certain races. That way, different groups/cultures of the same PC race can be created with the same ruleset instead of having to make a new variant or subrace of an existing race to account for them.
Fuse some skills together. This has occured to some degree in SWSE. A general "Perception" skill instead of seperate Listen & Spot checks. A general "Stealth" skill instead of Hide and Move Silently. A general "Spellcraft" skill instead of Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft (and maybe even Use Magic Device). Some feats could be dropped, since an appropriate Skill Focus feat could do the same job (or even slightly better now).
Make a more "generic" spell list that's customizable. The main example that comes to mind is combat spells. Instead of having specific spells like fireball, lightning bolt, and magic missile, have all spells deal force damage, an area of effect and certain conditions to hit (attack, touch attack, auto hit & save for half, or auto hit w/ no save).
If the character wants to have the spell deal a specific type of energy damage other than force, then add the energy, then increase the damage die of the spell (say from a d4 to a d6), have it gain an additional benefit for the different energy type (like fire lighting flammable materials, or acid doing additional damage the following round), but it also has energy-related limits (creatures with resistance or immunity to the energy type, not able to use the energy type in certain environments, etc.).
Provide generic versions of some monsters that can be easily modified as core. Have a "blank template" version of a monster that can have styles or themes added to them (esp. for monsters than have a lot of varieties based off of them, like giants, dragons, celestials, fiends, & the like).
For example, a generic Dragon base monster, which can have color-based themes added to it (such as simply adding a "red dragon" or "blue dragon" or "silver dragon" or "amethyst dragon" or "shou lung dragon" template to the existing core Dragon monster). This could allow DMs to simply recreate the existing D&D varieties of dragons, create new ones of their own, or even replace the existing ones and use their own campaign-based defaults (like having only 5 different types of dragons based on the different elemental energies, for example).
Take a new approach with Exotic Weapons. There seem to be few Exotic weapons that seem worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. I'd say to make this feat seem worthwhile, some other types of weapons could go into this category, or possibly gain an added benefit if this feat is taken. Two examples:
Make composite bows Exotic weapons. The benefits are increased range, increased usability (such as on horseback in some cases), the option for stronger bows that add in Str bonus to damage, etc.
-or-
Give Exotic twists to some martial and simple weapons, which need the EWP feat to be used by a character. Allow rapiers and scimitars to be used as Finesseable weapons or special monk weapons with an EWP feat. Allow longswords to used as piercing weapons or short swords as slashing weapons with an EWP feat. Allow battleaxes and warhammers to be throwing weapons using an EWP feat. Let a spear user extend the reach of an attack or use it one-handed using an EWP feat. Let a shield be used to bash without losing the AC bonus or be used as a thrown weapon with an EWP feat.
Well, those are my ideas for a potential 4E.
What I'd like to see:
Fewer core classes. Ideally, I think there should only be a few core classes: either 1 core class per each attribute (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), or just 3 core classes that cover the basics: combat & feat-focused, special ability & skill-focused, and magic/power-using focused. Each class should have a few set class skills, and the rest should be selectable (much as it is with the Generic Classes in UA).
Personally, I'd go for the 3-core class variant, esp. with the option to use or not use different categories of magic/power (arcane magic, divine magic, & psionic power, for example).
Go the d20 Modern route and use Talent trees to allow characters to select the style of character they want to play. Also, none of these core classes should have Alignment restrictions--that should just be a feature found with PrCs.
Change some core classes to prestige classes. Specific class concepts like knights, monks, paladins, druids, (the armed & armored) clerics, soulknives, beguilers, dread necromancers, rangers, spellcasting bards, samurai, & the like should be prestige classes instead of core classes. Any class with a "fixed" theme, certain requirements, or the like should be a PrC option. However, have the limited core classes still be viable selections on their own (unlike the required multiclassing of d20 Modern).
More "variable" racial abilities. Elements of a PC race that are based mainly on biology (like ability score modifiers, special vision or sense-based skill bonuses, etc.) should remain as is.
Culturally-based racial abilities, like the elves' free proficiencies with rapiers, longswords, and bows, or the dwarves' bonuses to Craft and Appraise, should be selectable. Allow for some degree of choice by letting a player select a culturally-based bonus feat from a limited list for certain races. That way, different groups/cultures of the same PC race can be created with the same ruleset instead of having to make a new variant or subrace of an existing race to account for them.
Fuse some skills together. This has occured to some degree in SWSE. A general "Perception" skill instead of seperate Listen & Spot checks. A general "Stealth" skill instead of Hide and Move Silently. A general "Spellcraft" skill instead of Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft (and maybe even Use Magic Device). Some feats could be dropped, since an appropriate Skill Focus feat could do the same job (or even slightly better now).
Make a more "generic" spell list that's customizable. The main example that comes to mind is combat spells. Instead of having specific spells like fireball, lightning bolt, and magic missile, have all spells deal force damage, an area of effect and certain conditions to hit (attack, touch attack, auto hit & save for half, or auto hit w/ no save).
If the character wants to have the spell deal a specific type of energy damage other than force, then add the energy, then increase the damage die of the spell (say from a d4 to a d6), have it gain an additional benefit for the different energy type (like fire lighting flammable materials, or acid doing additional damage the following round), but it also has energy-related limits (creatures with resistance or immunity to the energy type, not able to use the energy type in certain environments, etc.).
Provide generic versions of some monsters that can be easily modified as core. Have a "blank template" version of a monster that can have styles or themes added to them (esp. for monsters than have a lot of varieties based off of them, like giants, dragons, celestials, fiends, & the like).
For example, a generic Dragon base monster, which can have color-based themes added to it (such as simply adding a "red dragon" or "blue dragon" or "silver dragon" or "amethyst dragon" or "shou lung dragon" template to the existing core Dragon monster). This could allow DMs to simply recreate the existing D&D varieties of dragons, create new ones of their own, or even replace the existing ones and use their own campaign-based defaults (like having only 5 different types of dragons based on the different elemental energies, for example).
Take a new approach with Exotic Weapons. There seem to be few Exotic weapons that seem worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. I'd say to make this feat seem worthwhile, some other types of weapons could go into this category, or possibly gain an added benefit if this feat is taken. Two examples:
Make composite bows Exotic weapons. The benefits are increased range, increased usability (such as on horseback in some cases), the option for stronger bows that add in Str bonus to damage, etc.
-or-
Give Exotic twists to some martial and simple weapons, which need the EWP feat to be used by a character. Allow rapiers and scimitars to be used as Finesseable weapons or special monk weapons with an EWP feat. Allow longswords to used as piercing weapons or short swords as slashing weapons with an EWP feat. Allow battleaxes and warhammers to be throwing weapons using an EWP feat. Let a spear user extend the reach of an attack or use it one-handed using an EWP feat. Let a shield be used to bash without losing the AC bonus or be used as a thrown weapon with an EWP feat.
Well, those are my ideas for a potential 4E.
pogre
Legend
Either make Clerics even more powerful or let wizards cast cures. If D&D continues to have a high combat emphasis it would be nice if even more players wanted to play clerics.
I would love to see a rules simplification with more emphasis on miniatures, cards for spells and magic items, and maybe even feats. A nice mass combat system would be swell too.
I would love to see a rules simplification with more emphasis on miniatures, cards for spells and magic items, and maybe even feats. A nice mass combat system would be swell too.
ColonelHardisson said:
See to me none of those things are D&D. D&D is a storytelling adventure game where people get to escape from thier regular, boring mundane lives for a while and be someone special doing special things. I dont think any of the math, or "holy cows" of gaming have anything to do gaming. I know as a DM i have recruited D&Ders, not told them what we were playing, just the setting, and then ran a great white wolf game..... with white wolf rules and mechanics.
Whether a palidan, orc, or goofy priest/wizard distinction exists has nothing to do with gaming for me. As a kid i loved the stories, the escapism, and being someone more special then anyone can really be in our world now. And i think most people love gaming for the same reasons.
If what the dice your rolling are or the name of your character can ruin a game for you then your not a real gamer. And if your honestly more interested in game mechanics then plost, story, and feasibility.... you should go play everquest or warcraft online. Roleplaying just isnt for you.
Storyteller01
First Post
glass said:
Wouldn't call it evidence so much as reading into their actions. They've pulled licensing from nearly all sources (Paizo, Margret Wies, possibly Krenzer, etc). With WotC bringing everything in-house, it's unlikely they'll allow 4th ed to be used by competitors.
Simia Saturnalia
First Post
:tee hee: Now tell him how he's just "rollplaying".boredgremlin said:
Philotomy Jurament
First Post
I like the way you think. It'll never happen, but it's a good list, IMO.howandwhy99 said:
