What's a Freelance RPG Writer Worth?

Steve Conan Trustrum · Feb 14, 2018

Zak S said:
Evil Hat aren't spending it on the art, they aren't giving it to the writers, they aren't spending it on the production, so....where?

Production = product development and inventory output. They have a product catalog that is between 2x and 3x bigger than that of LotFP. Some is PDF but there's also a lot in (expensive quality, in my experience with their physical product) print. That requires money to sustain.

"Product development" literally means paying the creatives.

That's a component, yes. But it's paying them for NEW product, not putting more money into stuff already on the shelves.

Royalties has its upside and its downside. One of the biggest downsides, from a publisher's perspective, is that if the product succeeds, you can reach a point where the amount you're paying in royalties surpasses the point you would have paid out in a flat fee. So, even a successful product using royalties can mean less money going back into the business.

There isn't a magic "development" machine that you feed quarters into and it produces ideas for you. You pay artists graphic designers and writers to devote time to talking about and thinking about and making the thing.

Except that's typically not how the creative process works. The artists don't come to the publisher and say "I have this idea I want to talk to you about." The publisher goes to the artist and says "I have this idea, here's my rough art direction, how much to make it happen and how many approval options do I get with your quoted cost?"

Like I said: nobody's ever asked Evil Hat where the money they aren't paying creatives goes and they have never answered.

Still not seeing why that makes it "extra" money.

I know some of it goes to banner ads.

Which sounds pretty normal to me.

Why would they advertise all the money they're hoarding and not paying freelancers?

Hoarding? Really?

Anyone who says that ANY rpg publisher is making enough money to be "hoarding" profits illustrates a rather flawed understanding of both RPG publishing and the RPG market.

Zak S · Feb 14, 2018

Steve Conan Trustrum said:
Production = product development and inventory output. They have a product catalog that is between 2x and 3x bigger than that of LotFP. Some is PDF but there's also a lot in (expensive quality, in my experience with their physical product) print. That requires money to sustain.

Unless you're claiming that Evil Hat has less money than LotFP at any given moment, what's the point here?

And if they do have less money, then you're simply saying that Evil Hat's freelancers are paying the price for Evil Hat's mismanagement of their business. They sell a zillion more copies and have been around longer yet somehow have less cash?

Royalties has its upside and its downside. One of the biggest downsides, from a publisher's perspective, is that if the product succeeds, you can reach a point where the amount you're paying in royalties surpasses the point you would have paid out in a flat fee. So, even a successful product using royalties can mean less money going back into the business.

That's not a risk of how LotFP royalties work, that is how the royalty deals work on purpose: LotFP pays a flat fee equal or greater than Evil Hat or Green Ronin and then pays royalties on top of that.

And yet STILL they produce books with more money invested into the art writing binding printing etc than Evil Hat and Green Ronin.

Except that's typically not how the creative process works. The artists don't come to the publisher and say "I have this idea I want to talk to you about." The publisher goes to the artist and says "I have this idea, here's my rough art direction, how much to make it happen and how many approval options do I get with your quoted cost?"

1. Both of those things happen all the time. Vornheim and Maze of the Blue Medusa and Veins of the Earth happened the first way, Red & Pleasant Land, Frostbitten and Mutilated and many other products happened the second way.

2. Your whole point was that "paying for development" meant something other than "paying the artists and writers to make a thing" and that isn't true at all. The whole process you just described is "paying artists and writers to make a thing"

Still not seeing why that makes it "extra" money.

EVil Hat& Green Ronin make more money than Lotfp.

Evil Hat & Green Ronin spend less money on the writing and art and binding, printing, etc than LotFP.

(If not, where is any evidence of this? When have any of their books matched the indestructible gold-embossed clothbound extravaganzas LotFP put out?)

So there is money they are pocketing that LotFP isn't. Call it "extra" or whatever you like.

It's money they could use to make the products better for customers and fairer to their creators that they do not use for that purpose.

There's nothing wrong with any of this if:

1. consumers are ok with product that is less well-produced than the publisher can afford and

2. if the creators are ok with being paid less than they could be and

3. if both are ok with the results of what underpaid freelancers are pumping out for (literally in terms of US cost-of-living) poverty-line wages at per-word rates guaranteed to make them want to express every idea in the least efficient way possible using the most words in order to either line the pockets of the publisher or be spent on some mysterious business expense that shows nowhere in the finished product

...but I bet lots of people aren't ok with that.

Zak S · Feb 14, 2018

The US poverty line in 2017 Thresholds:

One person $13,860
Two people $18,670
Three people $23,480

At Evil Hate/Green Ronin rates, producing 500-1000 usable words per work day, every week, all week no time off, a game designer would make 6500-13000$ a year. Well below the poverty line

Meanwhile the publishers are somehow happily cruising along as full-time game publishers with no need for a second job.

And the high end (still below the poverty line for a single person with no kids) 1000 good RPG words a day and working every work day is not easy and probably barely sutainable.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest freelancers could describe this as "unfair".

I don't think it's unreasonable to say many RPG customers would describe the work currently being made under these conditions as disappointing.

Evil Hat and Ronin's excuse is that it has to be this way. They couldn't possibly pay people more or make better product.

LotFP and other OSR/DIY RPG companies are proving that is not true.

Steve Conan Trustrum · Feb 14, 2018

Zak S said:
Unless you're claiming that Evil Hat has less money than LotFP at any given moment, what's the point here?

The point is that business sustainment is a real thing that money must go into, more so when you don't have another job to support you. Green Ronin, as per your example, has a MUCH larger overhead than either Evil Hat or LotFP. And, although Green Ronin has full-time staff, I'd place safe money on them not living the Kardashian lifestyle as a result.

Not all businesses function the same. Just because you can point at LotFP and it's pay rate doesn't mean everyone who pays less is being unfair to their talents. Sure, some may be, but it's not a given. All of those businesses operate in different ways. Does James Edward Raggi IV have another job, for example, or is LotFP his only source of income?

And if they do have less money, then you're simply saying that Evil Hat's freelancers are paying the price for Evil Hat's mismanagement of their business. They sell a zillion more copies and have been around longer yet somehow have less cash?

That's why it's important to know the difference between gross and net profit. Having higher outlay =/= mismanagement.

Frankly, I don't know why it is, but I'm going to guess between your constant use of Evil Hat as an example and your loaded language and assumptions, you're concerned about proving some sort of personal point about them rather than actually discussing the financial realities of publishing.

[quoteThat's not a risk of how LotFP royalties work, that is how they work on purpose: LotFP pays a flat fee and then pays royalties on top of that.[/quote]From a publisher's perspective, it is an actual risk. Here's an example from my own company:

I have a popular supplement for Mutants and Masterminds. It's one of the most well-known and best-selling 3pp products for the system: Better Mousetrap. It was published under a royalties split model with its sole artist, Eric Lofgren, for the 2nd edition rules. It was a great deal because, at the time of that initial edition, I didn't have much money to work with as a budget, and certainly not enough to pay Eric a flat fee rate to illustrate and color all of this large book's art. It was a good deal for both of us based entirely on Eric's trust in me, as his income was 100% royalty based. When 3e came out, I went back and put time into rewriting this 150k+ word book, converting all the rules, redoing layout, remarketing, etc. That's a lot of work from the publisher's end. From Eric's perspective, he had to do a new cover and about 10 new art pieces. Everything else was carried over from the original, so not nearly as much work, but because the old art was being used, the old royalty agreement stands. So, from a publisher's perspective, using royalties for the art represents a clearly diminishing ROI from an effort perspective alone. But that's not all.

Better Mousetrap 3e surpassed the sales of its previous edition. It's now WAY past the point that it could have covered Eric's total art flat rate fees. But because he gets paid based on royalties, I keep taking money out of profits and giving them to Eric. This not only means less money in my pocket for all the additional work I put into the new edition, but it means less money going back into Misfit Studios for new products. Royalties, from a publisher's perspective, is an unending process of diminishing returns.

I've followed up Better Mousetrap, both in second and third editions, with my next most popular supplement, Metahuman Martial Arts. This book is even bigger and has more art, thus requires more time, but used stock art and art purchased on a flat fee basis. It's more niche and doesn't sell as well, in either 2e or 3e, but because my outlay is already long since paid, it makes far more money for Misfit Studios than does Better Mousetrap because my margin per sale is larger for the lack of still needing to pay someone else each sale.

The decision to go with royalties made sense at the time it was made but, future thinking-wise it was a mistake for Misfit Studios. I don't regret the decision, because i have a great relationship with Eric and it resulted in a good product, but purely from a business perspective, it's proven to be a bad risk that isn't paying off.

So as soon as an LotFP book sells well it is automatically paying more total than they would with a flat fee.

This here? This thing you just said?

This is where there is risk to the publisher. Intentions and good will aside, anything that increases costs is a risk to the business.

By definition.

The less money going back into the business, the less likely it is to be able to sustain itself against the unexpected, such as the rising costs of production if the paper market suddenly takes a hit or if another Wizard's Attic happens.

1. Both of those things happen all the time. Vornheim and Maze of the Blue Medusa and Veins of the Earth happened the first way, Red & Pleasant Land, Frostbitten and Mutilated and many other products happened the second way.

No, not "all the time."

The first is an outlier with most publishers. Most publishers develop product concepts in house and then look externally for the actual work to get done. Most publishers absolutely do not accept and then publish pitches as much as they do internally developed products.

2. Your whole point was that "paying for development" meant something other than "paying the artists and writers to make a thing" and that isn't true at all. The whole process you just described is "paying artists and writers to make a thing"

Yes, although it may be a surprise to some, there are costs involved with product development other than paying the artists and writers.

EVil Hat& Green Ronin make more money than Lotfp.

Sure, we can assume that in both gross and net.

Evil Hat & Green Ronin spend less money on the writing and art and binding, printing, etc than LotFP.

Yes on the former rates, but the latter isn't the same. All three companies produce print products with quality binding and paper. "Paying less" can be as simple as getting more for their money because they make larger orders with their printer. That "less" is actually purchasing value for the company and its market.

So there is money they are pocketing that LotFP isn't. Call it "extra" or whatever you like.

(again with the loaded language)

How do you know they are "pocketing" it?

Green Ronin has facilities and full-time staff to pay. The fact that their lower freelance rates reflects this isn't the same as "pocketing" money, "extra" or otherwise. It's a matter of the actual cost of doing business on a different scale than LotFP. (But the implication that it's not cool for the publishers to also try and make a living wage is kind of a real crappy perspective to take as a default position.)

It's money they could use to make the products better and fairer to their creators that they do not use for that purpose.

Only if we agree with your assumption they are "pocketing" it.

There's nothing wrong with any of this if:

1. consumers are ok with product that is less well-produced than the publisher can afford and

Well, I don't track Evil Hat as much, but people seem pretty happy with Green Ronin's product quality.

2. if the creators are ok with being paid less than they could be and

Having worked with Green Ronin, and knowing people who do, I'll also say that while people may always hope to earn more, they'll also work for the existing opportunities and be happy about it.

3. if both are ok with the results of what underpaid freelancers are pumping out for (literally in terms of US cost-of-living) poverty-line wages at per-word rates guaranteed to make them want to express every idea in the least efficient way possible using the most words in order to either line the pockets of the publisher or be spent on some mysterious business expense that shows nowhere in the finished product

Talents are "underpaid" by most RPG publishers because of the market and customers, not because of the publishers.

Low talent rates are the result of customers complaining and moaning that they aren't still paying the same price for product in 2018 as they were in 2000, coupled with an overall shrinking market, while talent rates increase. That's just the facts of the economics. For example, every single time Misfit Studios has tried raising a price to match economic shifts, there's been backlash over it and sales go down. So then it becomes a juggling game of whether the increased price is enough to bring in more money with fewer sales or if it's been raised to the point where it's just too high.

Every.

Time.

I've taken a small PDF product line with a cost of $1.55 per (with a profit of $1 per sale to me) up to $1.99 to accommodate art cost increases. Sales immediately dropped as a result and I was sent more than a few messages about how I was "ripping off" my loyal customers. Keep in mind that this price increase happened after the product line was 5 years old, so there were legitimate economic shifts to address. The result was that, in order to sustain the product line, I had to use original art less and stock art more just to maintain my own take away of $1 per sale, as the person doing the writing, layout, logistics, and marketing (you know, everything except the art; sometimes also including colouring the art myself.) This outcome doesn't exactly benefit freelancers either unless they happen to be the ones selling the stock art, because the result is missing job opportunities. And it's not like that $1 per sale I'm sustaining has the same value today as it did 5 years ago.

Because these are the realities of publishing beyond the perspective of freelancers alone.

There is a smaller market, that market wants to pay prices that are 20 years old, and freelancers expect rates that keep pace with the changing economy.

One of these things is not like the others.

Again, LotFP may pay great rates but is James Edward Raggi IV still doing other work to help pay expenses? Does his company have an office and full-time staff? How much of the work is he doing himself to reduce costs rather than "just" being the publisher? And on the projects he does the writing for, does he pay himself as he would any other writer or is he taking his compensation as writer out of the income he also takes as the publisher (as is the case with most small press)?

...but I bet lots of people aren't ok with that.

Then they won't work for those companies and will all go work for LotFP ...

... except they can't because, due to their higher rates, LotFP has less money to put into new product development and thus presents fewer opportunities for projects.

Because that's how businesses operate.

Zak S · Feb 14, 2018

Talents are "underpaid" by most RPG publishers because of the market and customers, not because of the publishers.

Except not at Lotfp.

Or at Satyr Press.

Or at other little OSR/DIY RPG presses that call me up and pay me way more than the 3-5 cents a word that Green Ronin and Evil Hat can offer.

Just like the publishers at Green Ronin and Evil Hat, James at LotFP has no other job.

They all live off their publishing.

And yet:

Green Ronin and Evil Hat make more money yet LotFP spends more on books and more on creators.

So either:

A) the big indies are "pocketing" that money (and not spending it on making the product better)

or

b) their business practices are--from the point of view of creators and customers--worse than LotFP & Cos and they are just finding ways to waste it that don't improve product

If it's because have more overhead? They should get rid of it then. It clearly isn't doing anyone any good except maybe their landlord.

Steve Conan Trustrum · Feb 14, 2018

Zak S said:
Except not at Lotfp.

Again ... is the owner also working another job? No? Good for him. Now, are you going to argue that is the standard in our industry?

Or at Satyr Press.

And I'm truly glad they can afford to pay more.

But consider, given what I stated above and you ignored, that may be part of the reason why 99% of the RPG market has never heard of them.

Or at other little OSR/DIY RPG presses that call me up and pay me way more than the 3-5 cents a word that Green Ronin and Evil Hat can offer.

Again, would those be more OSR/DIY RPG presses that are competing within a niche within a niche and most of the market has never heard of? Thus they don't have the same costs as companies that are competing in larger waters?

Just like the publishers at Green Ronin and Evil Hat, James at LotFP has no other job.

Great. It's always good news when a small press guy can go full-time.

And it's good to hear he's also paying for facilities, other full-time staff, licensing, etc., no?

They all live off their publishing.

And clearly in the high life because of all they are pocketing, correct?

And yet:

Green Ronin and Evil Hat make more money yet LotFP spends more on books and more on creators.

I'll give you LotFP pays more on its creatives, but you're guessing at paying more on its books. Green Ronin probably pays less per unit, but that's because they are buying in larger numbers. They also use glossy paper and lots of hard bounds. Despite paying less per unit, it's a safe bet their overall costs for publication and inventory maintenance are substantially higher than LotFP.

So either:

A) the big indies are "pocketing" that money (and not spending it on making the product better)

or

b) their business practices are--from the point of view of creators and customers--worse than LotFP & Cos and they are just finding ways to waste it that don't improve product

or c) there is actually such a thing as scale of economics in business.

If it's because have more overhead? They should get rid of it then. It clearly isn't doing anyone any good except maybe their landlord.

So ... you're advocating that they fire people in order to pay freelancers more? That they output less product and not keep up with their demand? That also sounds like poor business. Because you don't seem to realize that "overhead" includes other people and the cost of sustainment. The bigger the company, necessarily the more money it requires to sustain its operations.

Ultimately, here's the thing that brings this all back to the original question in the topic:

"What's a Freelance RPG Writer Worth?"

The answer is, simply, more than the RPG industry at large can afford.

The industry, by and large, hasn't been able to keep its prices at a pace with the economy. Why? Because they are a luxury good in a small niche market that only keeps shrinking. Product runs are much smaller than they were a decade ago, and a decade before that, and reliance on digital product is rising. Even then, customers measure value based on faulty perceptions like "it shouldn't cost that much if I'm not paying for paper." So, price shfits have been small, if at all, over the past 20 years.

But the cost of living goes up.

So, when you say things like artists and writers deserve a living wage? I agree. They deserve it. But if they want it, the RPG market isn't the place to go. This is objectively true by the very simple fact that 99% of the people paying them can't make a living wage in the market. Outliers at LotFP are able to pay more but it comes at the cost of not actually being able to compete in the core market. The industry is driven by people who need other jobs to sustain their households while also doing RPG publishing. That's just the economic truths of our market. Thus the joke "how do you make a small fortune in the RPG industry? Start with a big fortune."

RPG publishers don't pay rates that are much smaller than in other industries because they want to. They aren't "pocketing" or "hoarding" it as you suggest. That's just ridiculous, and you keep using that language because, as the conversation continues, you've clearly got a reason to specifically give black eyes to Evil Hat and Green Ronin. But positing that "the money is there" and that these publishers are sitting back lighting cigars with dollar bills is just ... silly.

Are there companies that can afford to pay more? Sure. Are there companies that can't? Yes, with even more certainty. Will the model used by LotFP apply to every game publisher? Absolutely not. And arguing that it would is a faulty premise clear to anyone with even the slightest business acumen, let alone experience publishing RPGs, because the differences between who those businesses are, where they are, who they are, and the scale they operate at -- SHOCK! -- have actual, practical implications that influence their financials.

Zak S · Feb 14, 2018

Steve Conan Trustrum said:
So ... you're advocating that they fire people in order to pay freelancers more? That they output less product and not keep up with their demand? That also sounds like poor business.

I do advocate that.

And it's only bad if you're not the creator (who gets paid more) and not the consumer (who gets a better product).

And my sympathies are with them, not with whoever owns or runs the warehouse where some indie publisher keeps thousands of copies of some supplement nobody involved cared about.

Steve Conan Trustrum · Feb 14, 2018

Zak S said:
Only if you're not the creator (who gets paid more) or not the consumer (who gets a better product).

And my sympathies are with them, not with whoever owns or runs the warehouse some indie publisher keeps thousands of copies of some supplement nobody involved cared about.

Yes ...

... because, oddly, RPG publishers are not psychically able to predict the future and know with absolute certainty how well a product will do before placing an order with the printer. And they continue to store product to sell longitudinally to make up their expenses, even if only via liquidation, rather than burning those "failed" books so you can keep your warehousing space down.

But that just bolsters my point:

I'll wager LotFP doesn't have a warehouse. I'd wager any physical product is being kept at a personal storage space or on-site in the publisher's home. Or they are paying to have distribution inventory for them. Why? Because their output doesn't warrant an actual warehousing space. But when a business gets bigger ... say, GR's size ... your output is such that you can't inventory in your basement any more. So you buy a space that has to fit your current need but also has to be a bit future thinking. Which is a standing expense and a risk, both.

Because running a competative business means taking those sorts of risks. Risks that have costs. And do you know what happens if you just stop taking the sort of risks that have sustained your business? Your business is stagnant, if not unsustainable. LotFP is almost certainly only able to pay what it does because it hasn't yet stepped up to the sort of level where it has the sort of risks and outlay as does a company like GR. It's a lot harder to pay absolute monthly bills that come with maintaining salaries and facilities when your income is always in the sort of additional flux that comes with always paying royalties rather than set expenses that only appear in your ledgers once.

Zak S · Feb 14, 2018

What you're saying is "these bigger companies have to pay creators less and consequently create worse product because they are big".

So clearly smaller is better both creatively and ethically.

So be smaller.

Steve Conan Trustrum · Feb 14, 2018

Zak S said:
So clearly smaller is better.

Be smaller.

For the freelancers, I guess.

Kinda sucks for everyone else.

And since the RPG industry isn't sustanied by the freelancers alone (you know ... since they need the people who actually offer them the job opportunities just like the publishers need the people who fill them), well ... let's just say I don't see the whole "let's fire our staff and stop fulfilling orders so we can downsize and pay writers and artists more" busines model happening market-wide anytime soon.

Because your entire premise depends on the assumption on your part that if people aren't doing business like LotFP is, the only reasons are they are either wasting money or hoarding it to their own unfair benefit. Your points repeatedly rely on circumstances that ignore the basic principles of running a business in general, let alone a larger RPG publisher, which is probably why you don't address these points in your replies, instead cherry picking the ones that allow you to return to your previous refrain without saying anything new.

EDIT:

What you're saying is "these bigger companies have to produce worse product and pay freelancers less because they're big"

While it's true that lower rates may come with a bigger business and the accompanying expenses, I've not said anything about worse product. You keep returning to that point without explaining why it is you objectively think GR and Evil Hat have "worse product." Considering I've got products from both companies, all of which are on high grade paper and with good binding that hasn't failed, I'm wondering where that accusation arises from and why you think I've been saying it's an expected outcome.

And the reason why, seemingly paradoxically, larger businesses may only be able to afford less is that, on the scale of economies, they have moved beyond the point of flexibility that a company with smaller outlay (e.g., LotFP) has, but not yet surpassed the point where their net profits allow them to pay more. It's an incredibly common place for small businenesses to find themselves operating in any industry, let alone RPG publishers.

Publisher	Rate/word for new writers	Notes
Paizo Publishing	$0.07*
Wizards of the Coast	$0.06*	Freelance articles for D&D Insider; other writers work on salary
Pinnacle Entertainment Group	$0.06*	"Higher for some folks, plus a % of any crowd funding we do if they're one of the principle creators."
Evil Hat Productions	$0.05
Atlas Games	$0.05
Steve Jackson Games (Pyramid / GURPs PDFs)	$0.04 (Pyramid) or royalties (GURPs)	After publication. "Pyramid pays 4 cents a word, shortly after the article appears in final form in our PDF"; "...our base royalty is 25% of the cover price (this can go up for authors with a strong reputation that helps sell books, and can go down for inexperienced authors or those requiring very heavy edits)."
Vorpal Games	$0.04
Posthuman Studios	$0.04
Pelgrane Press	$0.03*
Goodman Games	$0.03	Link is to Level Up magazine submissions; other submission calls have the same figure
EN Publishing	$0.03*
Drop Dead Studios	$0.025
Fat Goblin Games	$0.02
Dreamscarred Press	$0.02
Purple Duck Games	$0.01*
Frog God Games	$0.01*
Kobold Press	$0.01 - $0.06	"...strict minimum of 1 cent per word... Our rates for established, proven freelancers vary from 2 to 6 cents/word."
Bards & Sages	$0.01	25% on acceptance, rest on publication
Rite Publishing	$0.01*	Rates go as high as $0.11.
Raging Swan Press	$0.01
Open Gaming Monthly	$0.01	"If your submission IS selected, you will receive 1 cent per word for your first published work. If your work requires very little editing (fixing typos, fixing grammatical errors etc.) then that will likely be increased to 2 cents per word. If your work receives great reviews and we use your work in future issues or products, you'll receive 3 cents per word in those future products."
Obatron Productions	<$0.01	Savage Insider; Word Count: 2,000 – 5,600 \| $15 – $35
LPJ Design	$0.005* (half a cent)	Up to $0.02 with experience
Rogue Genius Press	royalties only
Ephemeric RPG	royalties only	$1.00 for every PDF or e-book that is ordered

What's a Freelance RPG Writer Worth?

Steve Conan Trustrum

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