What's a good starting level for a "You are mighty heroes" campaign?

[S'mon]

I would suggest a high-heroic starting level. I've voted 7th since this gives an extra encounter power.

Thanks Steve - I was reflecting on it more this morning and I had already come up with 7th as having several advantages. In the Monster Manuals etc the tough 'mundane' humans, orcs etc tend to be in the 7th-10th range; starting at 7th allows the DM to use lots of the listed MM stats like 8th level orc chiefs, 9th level pirates, 7th level highwaymen (in MVTTT Nentir Vale) etc. As you say it's less complex than Paragon, but reaching Paragon is within reach and can mark a transitional point where the PCs begin to transcend those mundane threats.

 

[S'mon]

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King." The heroes are as major as the NPCs they're protecting are minor. Gaining levels is supposed to show growth, though. What sorts of threats do you want the heroes overcoming when the campaign starts? What sort do you have in mind for them to face as it's wrapping up?

Hm, yes - I think maybe "You are major heroes at 1st level" could possibly work for me (without auto-scaling) if both the campaign and the setting were explicitly restricted to the Heroic tier, the way the new Neverwinter Campaign Setting does it. Most foes would be 1st-4th level minions, with standard monsters as enemy battle champions. The MV 6th level ogre would work as a legendary beast in this kind of set-up.

I still tend to think that 1st level may just be too squishy though, even in 4e. IME there is a big power up at 2nd level - attacks potentially go up by around 3 points (magic weapon, level bonus, expertise feat), defenses by 2 points (level & magic armour), and the extra hp make sudden 'negative bloodied' deaths much less likely. Plus the PCs aren't restricted to kobolds & goblins, they can handle a few of the lower level MV/MM orcs, hobgoblins etc.

I like the idea of starting at 2nd with the full treasure hand-out of 3 magic items & gear (3rd, 2nd & 1st, plus 360gp), I think that in a lower-magic and lower-power setting that's potentially enough to make the PCs feel sufficiently badass.

 

[Dice4Hire]

For Arthurian level knights, I would say 12, but voted 11th as 15th is too high.

For heroes who can deal with the lesser beings with ease, I would vote 6th

 

[Bold or Stupid]

I voted 11 but it's all good. My current campaign has always had a a mighty heroes feel. To feel like a mighty hero you need to save stuff from threats, you don't scale the monsters (the MM does that for you!) you scale the scope.

At Lvl 1 you save the village from Kobolds.
At 7 you save a town from Gnolls.
At 11 you save a City from a Vampire and his minions.
At 17 you save the counry from Giants.
At 21 you save the world from Demons.
At 30 you save the multiverse from a god trying to absorb it all.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

I have a follow-up question re starting at Paragon - given that Paragon is more complicated than Heroic, if running a campaign for less experienced players, how should the DM deal with that?

You could run a one-shot prelude to the campaign with paragon level characters that you create. That could give them a feel for paragon level without putting their characters in jeopardy and allow you to drop hints and preview the campaign.

 

[cpendlet]

If you do start at level 11 you may want to run a few a few sessions at lower levels (3, 6, and 9 for example) to help the players get a feel for there characters. I did a reset on my campaign when we got to level 11 and all the players made new characters (they were all interested in trying out different classes). The first few sessions it was clear the players did not really know how to use there characters effectively (not to mention constantly forgetting about class features, etc).

When we got to level 12 a couple players ended up redoing there characters a bit (swapping out a few feats/powers - obviously with DM approval ) as they were not working out the way the had expected. I figured this would happen and let them know in advance they would have the option to do so.

EDIT: this was with experienced players and a couple have been playing since before second edition.

 

[Mengu]

I don't see an Arthurian campaign as high level D&D, defnitely not epic.

Depending on how long you intend for the campaign to be I'd try and stay away from the high teens and twenties. High teens may be all right at the end. So I would run the campaign level 6-16 or maybe 5-18. That's a fairly healthy range. Starting a character at level 5 or 6 is not overwhelming, and you grow into paragon, which as player is something to always look forward to. And a level 5 or 6 character is pretty competent, as a matter of fact, I'd say level 6-8 is the most competent band for heroic. Your power usually wanes through levels 9-10, and jumps back up at 11. I'd want to give the characters some place to grow into, so I'd start at level 6 I think.

 

[OnlineDM]

Bold or Stupid said it well. The scope scales with level. (Could someone XP him for me? I apparently did so too recently.)

If you're not planning on that happening (e.g. if the knights are going to spend the entire campaign fighting off various armies and clearing out caves of various mundane monsters), then don't level up. I agree that it breaks immersion to say "the invading army we faced at level 2 was so much weaker than the invading army we're facing now that we're level 13!" So don't have them continually facing invading armies - have them take on bigger, more important and world-shaping challenges as they level up.

And if that's not what you want, then don't level up.

But I agree with many others that level 1 is the place to start, even for mighty heroes. Level 1 PCs are already a cut above the rest of the mundane populace.

 

[Jack99]

I tend to agree re immersion.

I have a follow-up question re starting at Paragon - given that Paragon is more complicated than Heroic, if running a campaign for less experienced players, how should the DM deal with that? What approach should I take to sources for PC generation? Would it be better to eg restrict characters to Essentials, or does the game need to be broader for long term play, eg you need to choose a Paragon Path at 11th, so should a wide variety of Paragon paths be available at chargen?

There are several ways to deal with inexperienced players starting at paragon. One way is not to start them at paragon. You could for example run 3 sessions (at lvl 3, 6 and 9 for example) where they get to know their characters. Perhaps in flash-backs (since they are level 11 at the real campaign start). That would give them 3 nights to get a feel for their base class.

The other option is to prolong level 11, so that it stretches 2 or even 3 times the normal amount of length. That way they could ease slowly into their characters before acquiring new powers (at lvl 12)

Regarding Essentials vs Core. Well, they are definitely more simple. Personally I might allow core (at least some) to leave them with some choices at least. But maybe you want to talk with players about not picking too many immediate actions for example, as well as watching out for what kind of feats they pick. Too many create a complexity that will grind a group of newbies to a very abrupt halt.

IME, one of the biggest issues are magic items. At higher level, the sheet of items is often more than just 1 sheet, and it gives a stupendous number of additional options. This might just be me, but no way I am every running high paragon or epic 4e without using inherent bonuses. You should seriously consider that as well, to keep the number of options available down.

 

[Camelot]

Matt Sernet mentioned something good in today's Design & Development article on the Neverwinter setting. He said that they designed the setting to be played in levels 1-10, so bosses who would normally be high level challenges were fit into those ranges. Then the quote of the day:

Game statistics are for game play, not to represent the "reality" of the rules.
​

So base your decision of where to start on the experience of your players. If they have never played 4e, start with level 1. If they are experienced and want more complex characters, start at a higher level. Either way, you can say that they've been on many adventures already and are great heroes and warlords. Play up the challenges they face. You can make a level 4 monster into a powerful tyrant ruling over a large city just by saying so, as long as it makes sense relative to the PCs' levels.