What's not fun?

[crazy_cat]

Waiting 45 minutes or more at the beginning of a game session while the players figure out their buff spells and the effects of which buff stacks with what - not fun.

Waiting 15 minutes while a player calculates his attack roll, his AC or his saving throw bonus - not fun.

Spending half an hour or more recalculating everyone's attack bonus, AC, and saves without magic items when in an antimagic zone - not fun.

Checking a dozen different buffs on someone to see which ones are dispelled by a dispel magic - not fun.

Checking a dozen magic items to see which ones are destroyed after being struck by Mordenkainen's disjunction - not fun.

Playing a character who can't seem to ever affect the opponents the party faces - not fun.

Having to carefully calculate treasure division after a session because wealth/magic items are essential for character effectiveness - not fun.

If 4e fixes these things, D&D will definitely be more fun.

Agreed.

I'd also add Gnomes to that list as well as a generally not fun thing.

 

[Umbran]

I'd like you to put away your zomg he's criticizing WotC glasses and read the post for what it is or just go to another thread little penguin boy.

And I'd like people to realize that they are supposed to play nice, discuss these things without getting personal, and realize that smilies don't keep them from sounding bossy and insulting.

As the poet said, "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need." So, folks, let's try a little harder, hm?

 

[CleverName]

Huh. Again, I've got to disagree. By the time you reach mid- to high levels, I've found that the D20 is almost too small a degree of chance to matter. This is especially true for people who have one or two aspects of their character utterly maxed out.

That's the beauty of a SAGA-like skill system -- it collapses the difficulty range into something that makes a d20's results always meaningful. Also it breaks skill checks within a skill's purview into those that can be made trained or untrained. So even though a 20th level PC might posses a raw "Healing" skill mod that's higher than the 3rd level npc doctor, the PC still can't perform the operation.

Modifiers break down like so:

+1-5 is nice - easy for 1st level PCs

+10-15 shows real "skill" -- doable by 3rd level PCs with focus and the right abilities; and epic level PCs will take this for granted for broad areas of focus or for certain common tasks within many skills.

+20 is the awesome -- not even high level PCs will sniff at skill mods at this level.

 

[Visceris]

Waiting 45 minutes or more at the beginning of a game session while the players figure out their buff spells and the effects of which buff stacks with what - not fun.

45 minutes or more? You got to be kidding. In my gaming group we take care of that crap BEFORE the session starts.

Waiting 15 minutes while a player calculates his attack roll, his AC or his saving throw bonus - not fun.

Again, that is figured out ahead of time.

Spending half an hour or more recalculating everyone's attack bonus, AC, and saves without magic items when in an antimagic zone - not fun.

What's there to recalculate? On the character sheets we use we always have the base numbers available in such cases.

Checking a dozen different buffs on someone to see which ones are dispelled by a dispel magic - not fun.

Simple Caster power check. If the Dispel Magic is higher than the spell buff casting power it is dispelled. Just subtract and go. Basic math that takes less than a minute to do.

Checking a dozen magic items to see which ones are destroyed after being struck by Mordenkainen's disjunction - not fun.

Just roll the die once, then just go down the list, modifying the die roll based on the items. Should take less than 5 minutes to do.

Playing a character who can't seem to ever affect the opponents the party faces - not fun.

Then take the support role. Such as if you know you can't hit or damage a foe but your buddy can, move to flank to give your buddy the +2 bonus, or to aid another to give another +2 bonus. Use tactics and play as a team.

Having to carefully calculate treasure division after a session because wealth/magic items are essential for character effectiveness - not fun.

Eh? We just split the gold evenly then each rolls the same d20. The person who rolls highest gets the first pick, the next highest gets the second pick, then so on. After each person goes once we start at the beginning again. Takes less that 10 minutes.

Having all mental control abilities nerfed by the first level spell Protection from Evil - not fun for a DM.

So, adjust the tactics. If the party is on their feet that is good because that means they are taking an interest in the game.

Absolute defenses against whole classes of abilities (such as death ward, freedom of movement, mind blank, true seeing, energy immunity or energy resistance 30, etc.) - not fun

Adapt, man. Just freaking adapt. Staying on your toes is one of the things that is fun about this game. Sheesh.

If 4e fixes these things, D&D will definitely be more fun.

I completely and totally disagree.

 

[Piratecat]

Visceris, I think your post shows that everyone plays D&D differently. some people definitely have a more difficult time with combat and rules than other people; I suspect it has a lot to do with the player dynamic around the table, along with the experience and rules mastery (and character sheet organization!) of the players.

As such, a better statement from Zoroaster might have been "If 4e fixes these things, D&D will definitely be more fun for me." For people who don't have the same problems, the new edition might still be better - or worse. There's no way to tell yet.

Even so, I suspect that a group who runs combat efficiently in 3e will be able to run combat efficiently in any rules set.

 

[Mouseferatu]

45 minutes or more? You got to be kidding. In my gaming group we take care of that crap BEFORE the session starts.

That only works if you know what you're facing--and roughly when--before the session starts.

I've seen way too many high-level games--nearly everyone I've played in, in fact--grind to a halt so the party can figure out which buffs are appropriate for a coming fight, in what order to cast them and how soon to cast them (due to differing durations), and the like. It got to the point where, if we wanted to do anything other than have a single combat for the duration of an entire session, the DM had to have foes surprise us*, because any advanced warning set off a flurry of planning, counter-planning, multiple castings, and refiguring of bonuses.

*(Something almost impossible to do with a 16th-level party...)

Not fun. In fact, boring as all hell, at least for me. I'm desperately hoping that the presence of a dozen different bonus types, some of which stack and some of which don't, is something that 4E does away with (or at least drastically cuts down).

 

[Visceris]

I guess our group is just a tad bit more efficient than yours. The buffers in our group always have the their array of buff spells on the read, and what tactics the gorup goes through depending on the encounter. Do we use Tactic 1 on a group of six orcs that our scout saw, or do we use Tactic 2 (yes, we have numbered our various tactics, up to 30 variations, depending on a given situation). 1 being setting up a basic ambush with everyone shooting bolts and arrows (everyone in the party has a range weapon), or does the scout alert the orcs and convince them to chase him into a trap we found (and avoided) to snare them, with the rest of us preparing our AoOs incase they don't fall for it.

Besides, buff spells are easy to figure out. Do the Hours long buffs first, the minute longs buff spells just prior to combat, then the round long buff spells, if you even bother, in the first round or two. Simple.

Strategy, tactics, and preperation.

 

[Mouseferatu]

(yes, we have numbered our various tactics, up to 30 variations, depending on a given situation).

Different strokes, I guess. To me, that's not a game-play style I'd find fun. There's only so much bookkeeping and formalized advanced prep I want to use--or to need--to make the game fun and efficient. I'd rather spend most of the tactical planning time analyzing the specific foe and deciding how to use the environment than working out (even in advance) a suite of buff spells.

 

[Visceris]

Well, that is how we handle combat so we can get it done and out of the way. We rather spend our time role playing our characters than roll playing them.

 

[Mouseferatu]

We rather spend our time role playing our characters than roll playing them.

On that point, I agree.