D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[strawbellebelle]

One-minute "stance" abilities that give zero cost to Discipline features beg the question of who such features are meant for, and what level such features would be granted at. Even a single minute of free Flurry of Blows or another ability equates to 10 Discipline points. Especially at lower levels, Monks don't need to get double bonus strikes every turn or to be able to Dash/Disengage/Dodge on every turn. At later levels, Monks have the resources to use Flurry of Blows and their other abilities more regularly.

For comparison, the OneD&D Shadow Monk gets free uses of Flurry of Blows as part of their 17th level feature, which requires remaining in darkness or dim light to maintain and uses 3 Discipline Points to activate.

I think we will see some situational stuff where like, if you crit you can use FoB without spending ki once before the end of your next turn, or if you reduce falling damage to 0 with Slow Fall you can do SpTW free once, etc. Some higher level stuff too.

I'd rather see new and interesting additions akin to what other classes have received in the OneD&D playtests. These two ideas are just too reliant on very specific and rare circumstances to be good features, coupled with the factor of "the Monk doesn't need a once-in-a-blue-moon free FoB/SotW".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One-minute "stance" abilities that give zero cost to Discipline features beg the question of who such features are meant for, and what level such features would be granted at. Even a single minute of free Flurry of Blows or another ability equates to 10 Discipline points. Especially at lower levels, Monks don't need to get double bonus strikes every turn or to be able to Dash/Disengage/Dodge on every turn. At later levels, Monks have the resources to use Flurry of Blows and their other abilities more regularly.

For comparison, the OneD&D Shadow Monk gets free uses of Flurry of Blows as part of their 17th level feature, which requires remaining in darkness or dim light to maintain and uses 3 Discipline Points to activate.

I’m not super interested in further dev on the idea, since it isn’t my idea. I offered refinement ideas to the person who suggested it. If you really need to argue with people about thier ideas and predictions, the person who suggest 1 minute stances is probably the better person to talk to.

I'd rather see new and interesting additions akin to what other classes have received in the OneD&D playtests. These two ideas are just too reliant on very specific and rare circumstances to be good features, coupled with the factor of "the Monk doesn't need a once-in-a-blue-moon free FoB/SotW".

Okay?

Feel free to share your predictions?

 

[Clint_L]

This is a spectacular first post. Welcome to the boards.

A good first post but the premise is wrong. In the monk thread responding to the last version in the UA, I and others show conclusively that without spending resources the monk is significantly underpowered compared to other melee classes. In fact, when you simulate rounds of combat at any level the monks combination of DPR and survivability is woefully behind even when maximizing resources.

The problem with his premise is that other melee classes have much high survivability built into the class chassis; you can’t analyze melee effectiveness by just looking at offence.

Re. Barbarian rage, the increased survivability has to be factored into any comparison with flurry of blows; you could get a free FoB every round and rage still outpaces it plus synergizes with reckless attack to increase offence even further. Even at low levels a raging, reckless barbarian does comparable damage to a monk with unlimited ki, with much greater survivability; at higher levels it’s an embarrassing comparison. By the numbers.

 

[Mistwell]

The fundamental problem of Monk Bad discourse is that it comes from a place of dismissing all of the innate point-free features the Monk possesses

I disagree. It's acknowledging the power-free features they possess are not adequate.

The fundamental disconnect seem to be you not comparing their abilities to other melee classes. For example, your claim flurry of blows would be overpowered if free fails to compare it to the attack and damage of other melee classes which would reveal it would be exactly in line with what other melee classes do without the expenditure of limited resources.

 

[Mephista]

I'm of the opinion that Step of the Wind, Flurry of Blows and Patient Defense should all use ki.
I am also of the opinion that ONLY these three things should use ki.
Everything else should either be free, or be improving those three features without increasing cost.

I am also of the opinion that Step of the Wind and Patient Defense should include an attack as part of their bonus action. Or, rather, they don't force you to sacrifice the bonus action attack from Martial Arts as part of their cost.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Re. Barbarian rage, the increased survivability has to be factored into any comparison with flurry of blows; you could get a free FoB every round and rage still outpaces it plus synergizes with reckless attack to increase offence even further. Even at low levels a raging, reckless barbarian does comparable damage to a monk with unlimited ki, with much greater survivability; at higher levels it’s an embarrassing comparison. By the numbers.

In that case, you also have to factor in:

• The limited number of Rages. Barbarians can only enter Rage a finite number of times, and only restore their uses on a Long Rest, as opposed to Discipline refilling on Short Rests.
• The added vulnerability Reckless Attack inflicts on a Barbarian. Sure, they have resistance to physical damage while raging. Not all enemies attack with bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. They don't have any innate increased resistance to conditions that can trigger on hit. (Remember, anything that locks a Barbarian down for even a single turn breaks their Rage.)
• The increased survivability Monk has with features like Evasion and Disciplined Survivor (incidentally, to the kind of attacks a Barbarian is commonly vulnerable to).
• The Monk's ability to gain Advantage from other sources, as well as creatures' ability to negate the Advantage from Reckless Attack; you can't just assume the Barbarian always has Advantage and the Monk never does.

But let's just compare the base damage either class does, with only the most basic of their features:

Level 1 Barbarian, d12 weapon, +3 mod, +2 Rage damage: 6-17 damage
Level 1 Monk, d6/d8 versatile weapon, d6 MA die, +3 mod, bonus strike: 8-20 damage

Level 5 Barbarian, now at +4 mod and two attacks: 14-36 damage
Level 5 Monk, now at +4 mod, two attacks, d8 MA die: 15-36 damage

Level 11 Barbarian, now at +5 mod and +3 Rage damage: 18-40 damage
Level 11 Monk, now at +5 mod and d10 MA die: 18-45 damage

Level 17 Barbarian, now at +4 Rage damage: 20-42 damage
Level 17 Monk, now at d12 MA die: 18-51 damage

And of course, there are numerous factors that can tip this balance, those mentioned above and others. The Barbarian can be a more offensive beast, or can lean towards defense; the Monk can augment their damage output, or lean towards support; both based on choice of subclass. But I think the point stands that DPR and a class's relative strengths are in fact very hard things to truly nail down, because any good game of D&D has far too many factors at work for "math" and "theorycrafting" to ever paint a representative picture.

(Edit: I'd also like to throw in the real answer to "Barbarian vs. Monk", which is "the Monk stuns the enemy and then the Barbarian auto-grapples and auto-prones the enemy so the entire party can wail on them". Also acceptable answers are "poison" and "prone via Open Hand".)

 

[Clint_L]

In that case, you also have to factor in:

• The limited number of Rages. Barbarians can only enter Rage a finite number of times, and only restore their uses on a Long Rest, as opposed to Discipline refilling on Short Rests.
• The added vulnerability Reckless Attack inflicts on a Barbarian. Sure, they have resistance to physical damage while raging. Not all enemies attack with bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. They don't have any innate increased resistance to conditions that can trigger on hit. (Remember, anything that locks a Barbarian down for even a single turn breaks their Rage.)
• The increased survivability Monk has with features like Evasion and Disciplined Survivor (incidentally, to the kind of attacks a Barbarian is commonly vulnerable to).
• The Monk's ability to gain Advantage from other sources, as well as creatures' ability to negate the Advantage from Reckless Attack; you can't just assume the Barbarian always has Advantage and the Monk never does.

But let's just compare the base damage either class does, with only the most basic of their features:

Level 1 Barbarian, d12 weapon, +3 mod, +2 Rage damage: 6-17 damage
Level 1 Monk, d6/d8 versatile weapon, d6 MA die, +3 mod, bonus strike: 8-20 damage

Level 5 Barbarian, now at +4 mod and two attacks: 14-36 damage
Level 5 Monk, now at +4 mod, two attacks, d8 MA die: 15-36 damage

Level 11 Barbarian, now at +5 mod and +3 Rage damage: 18-40 damage
Level 11 Monk, now at +5 mod and d10 MA die: 18-45 damage

Level 17 Barbarian, now at +4 Rage damage: 20-42 damage
Level 17 Monk, now at d12 MA die: 18-51 damage

And of course, there are numerous factors that can tip this balance, those mentioned above and others. The Barbarian can be a more offensive beast, or can lean towards defense; the Monk can augment their damage output, or lean towards support; both based on choice of subclass. But I think the point stands that DPR and a class's relative strengths are in fact very hard things to truly nail down, because any good game of D&D has far too many factors at work for "math" and "theorycrafting" to ever paint a representative picture.

(Edit: I'd also like to throw in the real answer to "Barbarian vs. Monk", which is "the Monk stuns the enemy and then the Barbarian auto-grapples and auto-prones the enemy so the entire party can wail on them". Also acceptable answers are "poison" and "prone via Open Hand".)

you’re new to the party but suffice to say that we’ve got through the numbers in a lot more detail than that and are all well aware that reckless attack increases the barbarians vulnerability; suffice to say it still crushes that of monks. Your damage numbers are also not remotely accurate. Perhaps watch Treantmonks videos comparing damage from various classes; I don’t always agree with his conclusions but his numbers are good and he shows his math.

 

[strawbellebelle]

you’re new to the party but suffice to say that we’ve got through the numbers in a lot more detail than that and are all well aware that reckless attack increases the barbarians vulnerability; suffice to say it still crushes that of monks. Your damage numbers are also not remotely accurate. Perhaps watch Treantmonks videos comparing damage from various classes; I don’t always agree with his conclusions but his numbers are good and he shows his math.

"Not remotely accurate" means "the exact damage numbers are wrong"?

The creators aren't going to change the game because some YouTuber thinks gameplay happens in featureless voids where only one set of circumstances are ever in play. (Even if said YouTuber openly encourages his followers to harass and spam the creators because they didn't give Monks 3d6 attacks.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

White room theorizing is stupid. Now let's got to my white room theory to prove that.

 

[mellored]

In that case, you also have to factor in:

• The increased survivability Monk has with features like Evasion and Disciplined Survivor (incidentally, to the kind of attacks a Barbarian is commonly vulnerable to).

Medium armor, d12 hit dice, danger sense, Relentless rage.

Persistent rage is a level after Disciplined Survivor. So losing rage isn't an issue.

And monks need Wis a lot more than barbarians need Con. So barbarians can get feats easier.

Also, Barbarians benefits from other sources of advantage too.

But let's just compare the base damage either class does, with only the most basic of their features:

I would consider weapon mastery, weapon feats, and reckless attack to be a basic barbarian feature.

But if we are going to ignore them, let's at least have the Barbarian dual wield.

Level 1 Barbarian, d12 weapon, +3 mod, +2 Rage damage: 6-17 damage
Level 1 Monk, d6/d8 versatile weapon, d6 MA die, +3 mod, bonus strike: 8-20 damage

Usually easier to compare average damage than a range.

D4-> 2.5
D6 -> 3.5
D8 -> 4.5
D10 -> 5.5
D12 -> 6.5

Barb: 2x(1d6+3+2) = 17, + HP, + resistance
Monk: 2x(1d6+3) = 13

Level 5 Barbarian, now at +4 mod and two attacks: 14-36 damage
Level 5 Monk, now at +4 mod, two attacks, d8 MA die: 15-36 damage

Barb: 3x(1d6+4+2) = 28.5, + HP, + resistance
Monk: 3x(1d8+4) = 25.5

Level 11 Barbarian, now at +5 mod and +3 Rage damage: 18-40 damage
Level 11 Monk, now at +5 mod and d10 MA die: 18-45 damage

Barb: 3x(1d6+5+3) = 34.5, + HP, + resistance
Monk: 3x(1d10+5) = 31

Level 17 Barbarian, now at +4 Rage damage: 20-42 damage
Level 17 Monk, now at d12 MA die: 18-51 damage

Barb: 3x(1d6+5+4) = 37.5, + HP, + resistance, + survive a lethal hit
Monk: 3x(1d12+5) = 34, + all saving throws