D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[strawbellebelle]

The fundamental problem of Monk Bad discourse is that it comes from a place of dismissing all of the innate point-free features the Monk possesses, while insisting that a Monk needs to be able to utilize its point-expending features every turn to be viable—something that just isn't true, and especially not at low levels when every class has limited resources.

Flurry of Blows should absolutely cost a Discipline Point; two extra attacks are far too strong, especially at low levels, to be a freebie addition. Step of the Wind, a coupled Dash/Disengage, is good where it is—Monks already have heightened movement speed without using any action for dashing. Patient Defense shouldn't be free either, free Disadvantage on all attacks against you without using your action isn't something any other class gets.

The idea that the Monk should have the means to infinitely refill their resource is also nonsensical and flies in the face of the game's design. No other class can just restore their own limited abilities just like that. Giving Monk more points at low levels creates a glaring resource disparity between classes, especially when Monks get their resources fully restored on a short rest. (And let's be frank: for most people, giving Monks more points at low levels or being able to regenerate points isn't really about making Monk better for Monks, it's about letting the Fighter or whoever taking a two-level dip spam Flurry of Blows twice or thrice as often.)

The only good solution I can see to this would be a limited number of "free" uses of subclass features, akin to the Ascendant Dragon's breath attack, with point cost for uses beyond that number of "free" uses. The worst possibility would be making subclass features that operate on limited uses without allowing Discipline Point usage; in that case, it destroys the Monk's ethos as a class that can decide which of its options it wishes to use. (But gives multiclassers more out of a smaller investment, so such a concept would inevitably get greenlit by the Veto Committee.)

Either way, I only see the next iteration of Monk going two ways: it gives Monk interesting new tools and features that don't take away from the class's ethos and makes it more fun to play for people who enjoy the Monk's playstyle, or it turns it into power-gamer fodder with changes that purely benefit low-level investments into the class while doing little to change the class for dedicated characters (if not outright making the class worse for pure Monks).

 

[mellored]

The idea that the Monk should have the means to infinitely refill their resource is also nonsensical and flies in the face of the game's design. No other class can just restore their own limited abilities just like that.

Rogues get to refill their Cunning Strike every turn.

Giving Monk more points at low levels creates a glaring resource disparity between classes, especially when Monks get their resources fully restored on a short rest. (And let's be frank: for most people, giving Monks more points at low levels or being able to regenerate points isn't really about making Monk better for Monks, it's about letting the Fighter or whoever taking a two-level dip spam Flurry of Blows twice or thrice as often.)

Doing 2d6+6 as a bonus action.
Vs
dipping barbarian for +2 damage and advantage on all attacks?

Go ahead and math that out. See how many flurry of blows is needed.

The only good solution I can see to this would be a limited number of "free" uses of subclass features, akin to the Ascendant Dragon's breath attack, with point cost for uses beyond that number of "free" uses.

Not sure how that's fundamentally different from more DP, except it's more things to keep track of. You're still using abilities more often.

I mean, if your just worried about flurry of blows.

Then you get 1 point each round.
Flurry of blows cost 2 points.

The worst possibility would be making subclass features that operate on limited uses without allowing Discipline Point usage; in that case, it destroys the Monk's ethos as a class that can decide which of its options it wishes to use.

Agreed.

Either way, I only see the next iteration of Monk going two ways: it gives Monk interesting new tools and features that don't take away from the class's ethos and makes it more fun to play for people who enjoy the Monk's playstyle, or it turns it into power-gamer fodder with changes that purely benefit low-level investments into the class while doing little to change the class for dedicated characters (if not outright making the class worse for pure Monks).

There is always a number between two other numbers.
And if you need a fraction of a DP, you can use a die.

I.e. at the end of your turn roll your martial arts die. If it's 5 or higher you regain a Discipline Point.

Adjust as needed.

 

[Kinematics]

Ooooh... What if... You have a maximum number of Discipline Points equal to your Wisdom modifier (min. 1), or your PB, or both (depending on the cost ratio they go with). At the beginning of your turn, if you have not spent a Discipline Point since the beginning of your last turn, you gain 1 Disclipline Point (up to your max).

I misread this at first, and while this idea was shot down, my reading was: You have, and can spend, a number of discipline points each turn equal to your Proficiency Bonus. (I would have used Wisdom modifier, but that gets into weird issues with stat progression.)

You essentially never run out of DP. You'd be gated by the levels you get abilities, and perhaps "uses per long rest" limits. You'd still have to redesign the ability list progression, of course.

As it is, you never really run out of DP at higher levels, and the real problem is running out easily at low levels. So just get rid of the pool entirely. You never "run out" of discipline. It's just a matter of experience allowing you to do more with what you have.

As for monk dips, it doesn't matter if you can theoretically spend 6 DP per turn if you're limited to one set of options that all use your bonus action. You can spend your 1 DP on whatever and that's all you get out of it. Useful, but the character level PB doesn't suddenly overpower it.

 

[tetrasodium]

The fundamental problem of Monk Bad discourse is that it comes from a place of dismissing all of the innate point-free features the Monk possesses, while insisting that a Monk needs to be able to utilize its point-expending features every turn to be viable—something that just isn't true, and especially not at low levels when every class has limited resources.

Flurry of Blows should absolutely cost a Discipline Point; two extra attacks are far too strong, especially at low levels, to be a freebie addition. Step of the Wind, a coupled Dash/Disengage, is good where it is—Monks already have heightened movement speed without using any action for dashing. Patient Defense shouldn't be free either, free Disadvantage on all attacks against you without using your action isn't something any other class gets.

The idea that the Monk should have the means to infinitely refill their resource is also nonsensical and flies in the face of the game's design. No other class can just restore their own limited abilities just like that. Giving Monk more points at low levels creates a glaring resource disparity between classes, especially when Monks get their resources fully restored on a short rest. (And let's be frank: for most people, giving Monks more points at low levels or being able to regenerate points isn't really about making Monk better for Monks, it's about letting the Fighter or whoever taking a two-level dip spam Flurry of Blows twice or thrice as often.)

The only good solution I can see to this would be a limited number of "free" uses of subclass features, akin to the Ascendant Dragon's breath attack, with point cost for uses beyond that number of "free" uses. The worst possibility would be making subclass features that operate on limited uses without allowing Discipline Point usage; in that case, it destroys the Monk's ethos as a class that can decide which of its options it wishes to use. (But gives multiclassers more out of a smaller investment, so such a concept would inevitably get greenlit by the Veto Committee.)

Either way, I only see the next iteration of Monk going two ways: it gives Monk interesting new tools and features that don't take away from the class's ethos and makes it more fun to play for people who enjoy the Monk's playstyle, or it turns it into power-gamer fodder with changes that purely benefit low-level investments into the class while doing little to change the class for dedicated characters (if not outright making the class worse for pure Monks).

This do much although I don't know how I feel about the limited free use then ki burning abilities idea. The fact that wotc doesn't even care to hint at the presence of that dlsming elephant in the room whenever they talk about monks and ki makes it difficult for a GM to push back against an unreasonable 5mwd expecting monk player.

I just hope that the no ki use but limited abilities Crawford mentioned are not continuing to support the problem by being a similar short rest recovery that does nothing but give one or more extra pools of resources a player e insists on utilizing every round on top of the remaining ki consuming abilities... unfortunately that's exactly what I expect wotc will do given the last warlock we saw.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The idea that the Monk should have the means to infinitely refill their resource is also nonsensical and flies in the face of the game's design.

Good. More classes should do it.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Rogues get to refill their Cunning Strike every turn.

Cunning Strike isn't an option Rogues necessarily get to use every turn. And let's be honest, Cunning Strikes are very poorly balanced as of UA7—they're far too cheap in terms of sneak-attack dice for the effects they can inflict, given that the Rogue has zero limitation to the number of uses for Cunning Strikes.

(In fact, it is a very common theme with responses to the UAs that certain folks expect just about everything to have no sort of resource and/or action management whatsoever—you can use whatever feature as often as you want, and get powerful added effects to other actions without any additional action usage. Weapon Masteries, Paladin smite changes, Cunning Strikes; the list goes on.)

Doing 2d6+6 as a bonus action.
Vs
dipping barbarian for +2 damage and advantage on all attacks?

Go ahead and math that out. See how many flurry of blows is needed.

Doing one bonus strike at 1d6+3 is already more than the Barbarian's Rage bonus. The Monk can also benefit from advantage through other factors.

"Math" and "theory" crafting scenarios very rarely resemble real play, and often rely on imagined circumstances that support the conclusion one already wants to reach.

 

[mellored]

Cunning Strike isn't an option Rogues necessarily get to use every turn. And let's be honest, Cunning Strikes are very poorly balanced as of UA7—they're far too cheap in terms of sneak-attack dice for the effects they can inflict, given that the Rogue has zero limitation to the number of uses for Cunning Strikes.

Meaning they will be used nearly every turn...

Doing one bonus strike at 1d6+3 is already more than the Barbarian's Rage bonus. The Monk can also benefit from advantage through other factors.

In one round yes. But rage last longer.

How many flurry of blows will match 10 minutes of rage? Let's see what circumstances you pick.

 

[Kobold Stew]

The fundamental problem of Monk Bad discourse is that it comes from a place of dismissing all of the innate point-free features the Monk possesses, while insisting that a Monk needs to be able to utilize its point-expending features every turn to be viable—something that just isn't true, and especially not at low levels when every class has limited resources. <snip>

This is a spectacular first post. Welcome to the boards.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think it would be cool if like Sorcery Incarnate, you have a limited pool resource that you can activate several times a day, only provide several options and flavor it as stances, each of which reduces a specific Di point cost. You can still use Di points in our out of the stance to activate the other abilities, but the one you choose causes the Di point cost to be 0 while the stance is active.

Dragon - 1 minute 0 cost FoB
Cheeta - 1 minute 0 cost SotW
Bear - 1 minute 0 cost PD

I’d use elements and have one that just adds to damage of your attacks without making anything free, as well as those.

Fire - FoB free (maybe worded as your martial arts attack becomes 2 attacks to avoid unintended power boosts to subs that make FoB do extra stuff)
Water - PD free (I’d actually prefer to make deflect missiles into deflect attacks and water stance makes the counter attack of DA free)
Air - SoTW free (your speed is doubled for 1 minute and you can take the dash or disengage action as a bonus action during that time)
Earth - you reduce damage you take once per turn by your wisdom modifier, and gain a bonus to all melee weapon and unarmed strike damage rolls equal to wisdom modifier

I'm partial to the idea that you get 1 point at the start of each turn, up to your level. May need to adjust a few things up to compensate.


But assuming that doesn't happen.

Basic actions: (0 points) bonus action
Disengage
Dash
Punch
Disadvantage on the next attack against you, or advantage on the next save. Whichever comes first.

1 point
Any 2 of the above. You can select punch twice.
Dodge

I like this, too.

2 points (level 5)
Stunning Stike

I would prefer making it cost a bonus action or be usable 1 per turn or be a special attack you make as an action, rather than make it cost more ki

3 points (level 11)
Gain an extra action.

5 points (level 17)
Take another turn immediately after this one. You cannot use this feature on that addional turn.

Legendary Actions. Spend DP to take an action at the end of another creatures turn.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Anyway, what I think will happen, or what I’d do at least:

Deflect Missiles becomes Deflect Attacks, still gains ability to delfect magic attacks at level 6. The counter-attack doesn’t cost DP if you exceed the damage of the attack by a certain amount? Or just doesn’t cost DP at all.

I think they’ll float letting monks Dash and Disengage for free, and SoTW is only needed if you want to do both and triple your jump distance. They may test Dodge as a free bonus action.

Tbh, I don’t think it would be out of line, and the Monk should have some stuff that no other class can do. I’d rather see Patient Defense be a DP cost upgrade where you dodge and gain damage reduction against attacks, which would make Delfect Attacks more likely to reduce damage to 0. Make those two features compliment eachother.

I think we will see some situational stuff where like, if you crit you can use FoB without spending ki once before the end of your next turn, or if you reduce falling damage to 0 with Slow Fall you can do SpTW free once, etc. Some higher level stuff too.