D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

I just reread the whole exchange, and no, you did not start with a conditionless BA disengage in this exchange. Your synopsis is very inaccurate.
Bonus Unarmed Strike -> intentionally miss -> move 5' without provoking.

Maybe a little complicated, but you can do it at-will, no conditions.
Wrong edition. 5 foot step(3.5) and shift(4e) depended on tactical grid combat mechanics that 5e designed against. Unfortunately the UA stuff we have seen so far makes no indication that wotc will be correcting that enshrined oversimplification
No idea why you think moving without provoking opportunity attacks depends on the grid...

And it gives Monks a unique way to move around that is different from rogues. A mini step of the wind.
 

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Bonus Unarmed Strike -> intentionally miss -> move 5' without provoking.

Maybe a little complicated, but you can do it at-will, no conditions.

No idea why you think moving without provoking opportunity attacks depends on the grid...
A few reasons , some being things that you are simply ignoring (like your original starting point was ignored).. The grid is measured in 5 foot increments for various good reasons & moving from grid to ToTM does not change the fact that 5 feet is 5 feet until you switch to something like zone based combat where 5 feet is more flexible. Five feet doesn't matter until some other rule makes it matter & those rules tend to be ones that get summed up as tactical grid based combat mechanics.
And it gives Monks a unique way to move around that is different from rogues. A mini step of the wind.
No, monks already have ways to move around, this only serves to further make a mockery of the vestigial tactical elements & further smear hostility across what should be actual decision points that 5e.
 

Bonus Unarmed Strike -> intentionally miss -> move 5' without provoking.

Maybe a little complicated, but you can do it at-will, no conditions.
That isn’t Disengage. This isn’t pedantry, either. That is very different from disengage.
No idea why you think moving without provoking opportunity attacks depends on the grid...
When did I even mention a grid?
And it gives Monks a unique way to move around that is different from rogues. A mini step of the wind.
Which would still be the case if it didn’t rely on missing.
 


Five feet doesn't matter until some other rule makes it matter & those rules tend to be ones that get summed up as tactical grid based combat mechanics.
Those rules already exist.

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.


Reach of 5' is very common. Not difficult to use in battle.

Monk: I run up, punch, and use my bonus action to get out of reach, and run back.

this only serves to further make a mockery of the vestigial tactical elements & further smear hostility across what should be actual decision points that 5e.
Umm... No idea how you got hostility from a pun mechanic.
 

That isn’t Disengage. This isn’t pedantry, either. That is very different from disengage.
disengage (lower case).

And it's intentionally different from rogues cunning action.
When did I even mention a grid?
Different reply.
Which would still be the case if it didn’t rely on missing.
But that would ruin my pun... :cry:
But sure. It was a bit complicated.

Shifting Sands (level 1)
As a bonus action, while not wearing armor or using a shield, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
This increases to 10' at level 10, and 15' at level 18. You can not use this if your speed is 0.

Flowing River. (Open Hand 3)
When you hit an creature with an Unarmed Attack, you can push it 5'.
When you miss a creature with an Unarmed Attack, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
 

disengage (lower case).

And it's intentionally different from rogues cunning action.
I’m not sure Cunning Action should be unique, tbh. Monk and Ranger both are held back a bit by the “need” to protect its niche.
Different reply.
Ah, must be to someone whose posts I don’t see.
But that would ruin my pun... :cry:
But sure. It was a bit complicated.
Like I said, fair enough on the name. And if paired with a more “just use this when you want” feature that doesn’t require a miss, I’m fine with it mechanically.
Shifting Sands (level 1)
As a bonus action, while not wearing armor or using a shield, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
This increases to 10' at level 10, and 15' at level 18. You can not use this if your speed is 0.

Flowing River. (Open Hand 3)
When you hit an creature with an Unarmed Attack, you can push it 5'.
When you miss a creature with an Unarmed Attack, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
Okay, that probably works better. My inclination is to at least make the BA move be half your speed, but it’s not a huge deal. I just often see situations that would leave the the monk very much still in the think of it after using that. What about “a number of feet equal to your Unarmored movement bonus”?

I’d probably fold that into Step of The Wind. That plus making delfect missiles into delfect attacks (and upgrade from weapon attacks to all attacks at level 6) would make it so each of the three main discipline features have a solid at-will function.
 

So my first draft of spreadsheeting the monk was lacking in a few areas. I've updated it, and will give an explanation of how I modeled the subclass features for clarity (and correction, if appropriate).

Here's a general comparison of some monk builds:
gjI433z.png


Discipline Points: I set a reserve pool of DP that are intended for use with damage-dealing features. Other DP is left to be spent on Step of the Wind, or Stunning Strike, or whatever. The default I've set is 67% of the total DP amount.

The number of rounds available to spend DP in is defaulted to 6 — 2 fights of 3 rounds each, per short rest. Changing this only has a small effect on the graph, generally just moving lines up and down a little bit, so I'm not too worried about it.

Flurry of Blows: Since there are a number of things monk can do with its bonus action, I put a limit on the number of Flurry of Blows you can use per short rest. This limit defaults to 75% (so 4.5 rounds out of 6). This is on top of the limit on the number of DP you can spend per short rest. As you go up in level, you can use FoB more often because you have more DP, until you reach the limit of the action economy.

Warrior of Mercy

Hand of Harm: This is basically the same damage as FoB, except using Mnd as a bonus rather than Dex. Because of that, and the variations in when you might want to use each, I decided to treat FoB and HoH as fungible (can be swapped out for each other for the same gain). The limit on how often you can use them still starts off with your DP pool, so the calculations only add HoH damage once you have enough DP that you've surpassed the action economy limit for FoB. At least, until level 11.

At level 11, you get HoH for free when you use FoB, so you always have at least as many as you can use FoB for. However, since it doesn't interfere with the action economy, you also get it for any remaining rounds, as long as you have the DP (which should always be the case by that point).

Warrior of the Hand

Quivering Palm: This does a large quantity of damage, but takes your full action to activate, so you don't do other damage on that turn. The number of times this is used depends on how much DP is leftover after using FoB. By default, this will be 2 uses per short rest at levels 17+, though it's possible to increase it with some adjustments.

The handaxe build (in red) pulls an early lead because of Vex. I got rid of the dual-wielding dagger because it doesn't contribute much damage, and eats the Vex boost which is better spent on a full unarmed strike. The modeling of Vex will be slightly less accurate for the monk, as it was designed for the rogue and fighter classes, which only maybe have one offhand attack, rather than potentially two. It should still be a reasonable approximation, though.

Warrior of the Elements

Environmental Burst (level 6) is not included, since it's an AOE effect that takes the place of normal attacks. Since AOE damage is impractical to model, I've left it out.

Empowered Strikes (level 17) is a bit like Hand of Harm, in that it's an extra damage die on top of normal attacks. It doesn't have any DP requirement, so it's always used as long as you hit at least once that turn.

Destructive Stride (level 17) is another AOE-like effect which I'm not sure how I'd model.

Both AOE effects likely boost the Warrior of the Elements' general damage potential vs what's shown in the graph.


Vs Barbarian

Here's a fresh comparison with the Wild Heart barbarian.
hZsDLGt.png


The monk comes a lot closer to the barbarian at level 17+ with the extra features added in. Overall, it's not as bad as the earlier estimation.

However the flatness of its damage is still evident, though now it's more clearly levels 8 through 16. Only the Warrior of Mercy gets a feature to boost damage at level 11, and the monk's martial arts die also increases from 1d8 to 1d10 at level 11. All the other features monk gets during those levels relate to mobility and defense. (NB: Xanathar's and Tasha's subclasses differ on this, having more 'active' features at level 11.)

Those are certainly useful and thematic, but having such a long stretch, from late 2nd tier all the way to the end of 3rd tier, without any significant increase in effectiveness in a fight, while everyone else is still improving, is likely a significant component about the monk feeling "weak".

The one major factor in the monk's toolkit is mobility, both in the base class, and in most of the subclasses. It's clearly built so that its increased mobility compensates for its lack of direct power. The question is, how do you leverage that in a game that is quite often frustratingly limited in how you can use movement in a fight? Plus having features that often cut your damage in half (use your bonus action) to use them (often for increased mobility).


Anyway, I don't have any answers. This is just an examination of where things stand.
 

Those rules already exist.
That is the problem and the rest of your post makes clear the extreme contrivance you are using to build a white room just to ake the ability look limited
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.


Reach of 5' is very common. Not difficult to use in battle.

Monk: I run up, punch, and use my bonus action to get out of reach, and run back.
It's not 5 feet, it's 5feet plus any remaining unused movement.
Umm... No idea how you got hostility from a pun mechanic.
Easy. The ability is designed to ensure that reversing any of the damage done 5e's efforts in service of the one true way is needlessly difficult. It does that by being a defacto disengage in all but name in order to prevent simply changing disengage in order to change how disengage works
 

The other thing you have to consider at high levels is the availability of magic items...or rather, the lack of them for monks. Most characters will have a +3 weapon by level 15+, which is a significant damage boost (the + 3 damage per hit is nice...but the +15% chance to hit is where the real value lies). I am hopeful that, in addition to the baseline fixes to monk in the 2024 PHB, the new DMG also does a much better job of including reasonable magic item options for all classes.
 

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