D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

Some people in here are tone policing, some are making things personal, and so forth. Let’s ALL pause, take a breath, and resume posting politely and respectfully.

 

[tetrasodium]

Your comments on post 106.

Spoiler: Post 106

No. This entire tangent shows everything wrong with monk design and priorities. Going by the last few pages monk needs to:

• Meet or exceed barbarian nonrage damage without using discipline because barbarians have other features too
• Remove the discipline cost from most of the many monk abilities monk also have because reasons
• Make many monk abilities unlink from the action economy because it wouldn't be right if monk had to choose from doing one or the other like every other class needs to decide when situations are more appropriate for one over another
• Meet or exceed rogue's ability to get out of melee without provoking an OA, but it shouldn't hinge on consuming something in the action economy or discipline points.

About the only thing not called for is meet or exceed plate+sword and board ac

was not about if monk "should do more [or less] damage than a barb". Monk can do a wide array of things because rather than a cohesive set of abilities & powers designed to fill a specific role at the table it instead is a set of themes & powers attempting to fit the extremes of 8th grade syndrome into d&d. That lack of role as a design goal results in a class that appears to be capable of any role, which it can with reasonable success, but the theme is 8th grade syndrome & as a result must meet or exceed the capabilities of any other classes with abilities or it fails to meet the themes and is deemed useless by it's advocates.

So what are your suggestions for the monk then?

The first step would be for wotc to give the monk the same thing that crawford recently gave the wizard when he said its core strength was in their spell list. Monk was originally inspired by a series of books called "The Destroyer" & instead of trying to give it a proper role to aim for it just keeps getting a growing list of improvements aimed at improving its capabilities to do x or y, but the time for "uhh... this theme/trope/feature shouldn't exist because we are making d&d not this or this".

In failing to do those things wotc has created a situation where people are calling for the monk to be A-tier or better in everything they could do & largely for it to be done with little or no meaningful resource attrition or action cost rather than if a given feature is core to/in conflict with meeting a stated theme strength or role in the context of d&d. Without being able to do what we could only recently do for wizards & agree on what wotc feels the monk's core strength/role is X it's impossible to say what could or should be done in service of meeting that goal.

What are it's weaknesses that need improving?

We can't even agree as to what the monk's core strength role & identity within the context of d&d's gameplay should be. That's not a case of differing opinions, there is simply no information to support such a hypothetical agreement. This question is no different from where monk DPR should fall.

Is there something about it you think is too strong?

yes When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points.. There are also a number of features channeling 8th grader syndrome in the way they are sort of a quantum magic but not magic skill but not skill that removes the GM's ability to engage in their portion of the playloop while effectively granting the player to effectively dictate the results of all three steps.

Anything beyond that may or may not need improving may or may not be too strong & may or may not even fit the goals of meeting the monk's strengths & gameplay roles

 

[tetrasodium]

How is it being overly generous in what they grant? I was applying exactly what they provide.

There has been some good discourse on that subject earlier in the thread across posts like #53, #54, & maybe even others. That misplaced survey chasing results in the very reasons you felt they would make enough difference in at will DPR

Please elaborate. If it's illustrating other issues in the playtest, then that's exactly what should be getting discussed. If you think the comparison isn't useful, then please provide the parameters that you'd want to use instead. What context should be used for what you would consider a meaningful comparison?

And that the playtest is "still in flux" is meaningless waffling, and a bad faith distraction. We are only able to, and only should be considering the state of the game as of the current playtest.

Can you compare weapon masteries on the UA weapon lists we've seen to the 2024DMGunarmed weapons? We've barely scratched the surface of feats & you want to include the lack of a feat for something as a solid reason to include some other feat in a comparison. A recent UA literally mentions unarmed weapons being slated for the 2024 DMG. Weapon masteries have received slight changes in most of the packets we have seen them included. It would be premature to say that the 2024 mechanics are clearly set in stone & not in an obvious state of flux.

Nobody but wotc folks can provide you with parameters for a solid whiteroom comparison for the reasons outlined in 142. Until wotc starts providing that kind of information any such whiteroom needs to be prefaced with a statement like "If we assume that the monk's [role/strength/etc] should be X then....". The trouble with prefacing a whiteroom with a condition like that is that there are immediately a whole bunch of monk features in conflict too strong ill fitting or simply bizarre with no reason to exist.

 

[mellored]

as a result must meet or exceed the capabilities of any other classes

Not simultaneously.

You have a resource, including actions. You can't spend it on everything every round.

Chose damage, defenses, OR mobility.

True for any class really.

We can't even agree as to what the monk's core strength role & identity within the context of d&d's gameplay should be.

I think there is more agreement on the monk than the ranger
or fighter.

This question is no different from where monk DPR should fall.

Depends on what abilities they use.

Just like it depends on what weapon the fighter uses, or what spells the wizard has..

But if your using your resources on offence, you should have good offence. Kinda irrelevant of the class.

yes When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points.

Ok, so back to your main issue being short rests.

I guess you have a lot of little fights and short rest in between each one. I assume you have the same issue with warlocks then.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Momentum Control:
You feat and fist move in tandem, allowing you to convert some of the momentum of attacks into movement.

Choose one of the following..
Miss Step: you move 5' after you miss with an attack.
Follow Though: you move 5' after you hit with an attack
Roll with it: you move 5' after you are hit.
Side Step: you move 5' after you are missed.
This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. You gain an additional choice at levels 9, 13, and 18.
1DP: increase the distance to your Unarmored Movement.

That's interesting.

Basically the issue with the Monk is that it doesn't really do basic defense all that well without spending resources, until higher levels, and never has the toughness it needs, and burns through ki way too fast in order to do the offense others can do with less of their resources.

Making mobility cost less, and defense abilities a bit more potent when used would go a long way.

 

[strawbellebelle]

Calling disagreement insults and then coming out with "There is absolutely a segment of the community that relishes in the toxic idea of "optimization"" is a pretty bold strat, I'll admit.

You seem to think there isn't this blatant strain of bizarre hostility towards the creators whenever there is something that a certain segment of the playerbase disapproves of, or even when they flat-out invent things the creators have given no suggestion of doing just so they can lambast the creators over this invented scenario that hasn't even happened.

If this sort of hostility didn't exist, you wouldn't have had multiple D&D YouTubers encouraging their followers to spam and abuse the survey results at their beck and whim because the Monk changes weren't what they wanted. You wouldn't have people treating the Monk changes as a massive nerf because one feature can't be spammed on every attack. There absolutely are people who take one class in a TTRPG not being what they want it to be as a personal offense, and the same for people who enjoy that class for what it is, because that means the creators are less likely to change the class to suit those people and those people alone.

And yes, such people tend to be bizarrely hostile towards the suggestion that when you're actually playing the game, movement speed does make a difference and getting 1 less point of HP per level does not instantly make you squishy.


Also, on the topic of "what strengths/roles does the Monk have"...that isn't actually a difficult question, based on the Monk's features. If I was to sum up the Monk in one sentence:

The Monk is an agile combatant with an assortment of offensive and supportive options, utilizing its movement and flexibility in a striker and/or controller role.

The thing about that one sentence is:

• The options a Monk has and where they lean in terms of damage vs. support is highly dependent on their subclass, and because 99% of theorycrafting completely ignores subclasses, such folks dismiss the Monk's potential in such areas.
• "Support" and "movement" are strengths that are not easily defined in theorycrafting, therefore theorycrafting almost always treats such assets as being nonexistent.
• Theorycrafting also has a blatant tendency to obsess over the Monk having limited resources, while at the same time treating every other class as having infinite and omnipresent resources. (see: the earlier "barbarian always has rage/advantage" hypotheticals)

 

[Kinematics]

That's interesting.

Basically the issue with the Monk is that it doesn't really do basic defense all that well without spending resources, until higher levels, and never has the toughness it needs, and burns through ki way too fast in order to do the offense others can do with less of their resources.

Making mobility cost less, and defense abilities a bit more potent when used would go a long way.

Right. Let's look at some of the early levels, step by step. At these low levels, everyone kinda sucks.

Level 1

• Monk: Martial Arts.
• Barbarian: 2 Rages
• Fighter: Fighting Style, Second Wind
• Rogue: Sneak Attack, Expertise
• Ranger: Spellcasting, Expertise

So:

• Monk's Martial Arts is roughly equivalent to the Fighting Style that fighter gets.
• Barbarian gets offense+defense in Rage. Two Rages should cover about as many fights as you're likely to get per day.
• Fighter has a little extra survivability with Second Wind, and a baseline fighting boost with their chosen Fighting Style.
• Rogue gets extra damage, though no attribute mod added on offhand attacks. They also get Expertise for non-combat stuff.
• Ranger gets a couple spells and Expertise.

Everyone gets a small boost to damage compared to non-martials, except possibly for ranger (depends on spells picked). Barbarian and fighter both get a little extra defense/survivability. Monk's Unarmored Defense is just armor without armor, so nothing beyond any other class just getting armor proficiency.

All classes get Weapon Mastery.

So at level 1, monk feels a little lacking. The other martial classes all got something on top of a very basic boost to offense, but all monk gets is Unarmored Defense.

Level 2

• Monk: 2 Discipline Points (DP). +10 speed.
• Barbarian: Reckless Attack
• Fighter: Action Surge
• Rogue: Cunning Action
• Ranger: Favored Enemy, Fighting Style

So:

• Monk gets DP. You get 2 points per short rest, which might be expected to cover 3-6 rounds of combat. Out of one or two combats, you can make two extra attacks, have a couple rounds of extra defense or movement, or a balance of the above.
• Barbarian gets the feature that allows sacrificing defense for offense, infinitely usable.
• Fighter also gets a boost to a single turn over one to two fights, but that boost is an entire extra action. Which, at these levels means just one extra attack, or other actions which other classes might get as bonus actions. Fairly flexible option.
• Rogue can Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action, without cost. Reasonable tactical options.
• Ranger gets its Fighting Style one level later than fighter, and Favored Enemy gives it a free spell (Hunter's Mark), and free castings of that spell (up to Wis mod times). This is basically all the offensive bonuses it didn't get at level 1 with the other classes.

Everyone except rogue gets some sort of extra offense option. Rogue gets no-cost tactical options. Fighter's Action Surge is considered great, but it's actually kinda middling at this level. It becomes more impressive as the fighter gets to attack more at later levels.

And monk gets started on its DP track. At this level it can be considered two uses of Action Surge, where you can do extra damage, or move better, or dodge. It mainly seems lacking in comparison to the rogue, which can make those tactical options for free, while also using an offhand weapon (equivalent to the extra Martial Arts unarmed strike) with the Nick weapon mastery so as not to interfere with the use of its bonus action.

Monk has some flexibility in going offense or tactics, but while the offense boosts damage, the tactics decrease damage by using up the bonus action.

The conflict with the bonus action has been a long-standing friction issue, which Mike Mearls commented on in his YouTube videos many years ago. The early playtests briefly toyed with making offhand weapon attacks not use the bonus action at all, but then reverted that and instead allowed it as an option with a weapon mastery.

Since making use of the extra DP abilities costs a resource, it shouldn't have a secondary hidden cost of taking away your first level damage boost. (Note: I just realized that my spreadsheet didn't account for that damage reduction when FoB was not used. I'm not going to try to add it, but it does mean there's a slight drop in expected damage.) The rogue's Cunning Action also contests with using an offhand weapon, but it doesn't take away the rogue's basic damage boost (Sneak Attack), and doesn't make you pay for the option to do so.

* If I were to adjust this, I'd integrate the bonus unarmed strike into the Attack Action itself. That leaves the bonus action open for any Martial Discipline action without penalizing your Martial Arts bonus damage.

Ranger can dual wield + Hunter's Mark for ~3d6 + 2xMod. Rogue can dual wield for ~3d6 + 2xMod. Barbarian can dual wield for 2x6 + 2xMod + 2xRage (roughly equivalent to another d6). A dual wielding monk could do 3d6 + 2xMod, while still having options open for using DP. You would have to sacrifice the offhand attack (unless you went 1d4 instead of 1d6), but at least it's not reducing a feature you already gained.

Level 3

Everyone gets subclasses. I won't try to get into them, as they're too varied.

Monk gets Deflect Missiles, which is a low value feature, which is why it can be stacked with the subclasses.

Level 4

Monk gets Slow Fall, which is basically a ribbon feature here. No other class gets a feature at an ASI level, that I can think of.

Everyone gets an ASI. Because all level 4 feats are half feats now, you can reach 18 in your primary stat at this point if you focused on building that way. I'll assume there's no major differential in that regard here.

So, while we can maybe spend another ASI point on a stat, the real factor at this level is your first feat. There are many options available, and what's actually chosen will be heavily player, character concept, and table-dependent. However, what is it that you "can" do? I'm mostly focusing on monk here.

All feats are from the Expert Classes playtest.

Charger improves the distance you can Dash, which is a nice bonus for Step of the Wind. Rogue can also use it with Cunning Action, though I'd expect them to be more likely to want to Hide for Sneak Attack (unless you're in a sucky game where there's never anywhere to hide). This is a lower priority for the other martial classes (except maybe Eagle barbarian).

Charger also gives you an extra 1d8 (or a 10' shove) when you move in to attack a target. This works very well with monk, since Step of the Wind also provides a Disengage, so you can move away afterwards, giving you room to charge in again next turn. This is basically giving you 1d8 damage as a bonus action with SotW, on top of the unarmed strike that FoB gives you.

Defensive Duelist is interesting. It's usable by a monk using a dagger in the offhand (using it for Nick, to leave the bonus action free). More interesting would be considering that the monk's unarmed strikes are essentially a finesse weapon, since you're allowed to use Dex for them rather than Str. (Or maybe all simple weapons, too, for monk.) If so, this would be a nice defensive boost for monk.

Grappler is a reasonable choice. If you're not dual wielding or using a staff in two hands, you always have a hand free to grapple, and none of the features interfere with your bonus actions. You can grapple as part of an attack, so it doesn't interfere with your damage output or bonus action. This gives you advantage on further attacks, plus being able to easily move grappled creatures around.

Great Weapon Master does nothing for monk, though it's one of the better offensive choices for several other builds. I would not be surprised to see a barbarian or fighter take it at this level. Same for Polearm Master.

Skulker might be taken by a Shadow monk.

Speedster feeds the need for a faster monk, but getting it probably mostly depends on whether you want to be able to ignore difficult terrain when you Dash (SotW). It can certainly be useful, but it's also a niche requirement. Probably not my first choice at level 4.


So Charger and Grappler both seem like good options that would be regularly used, with Defensive Duelist being added if the monk's unarmed strikes (and simple weapons?) can be considered finesse weapons. These are not major boosts to damage, but they're solid tactical options that fit with various approaches to playing a monk.

Level 5

Extra attack for everyone.

Monk gets Stunning Strike. This is controversial, and the one overpowered feature of the PHB version. It was nerfed, but that nerf seems needed.

I am not sure what, if anything, I would revise with Stunning Strike. It's a complicated feature to consider. However it definitely feels like something that encourages draining your DP pool for, rather than using your other DP options. This is likely a primary culprit in diminishing the "feel" of the monk.

I think I would probably move Stunning Strike into the Warrior of the Hand subclass, using the level 6 feature. Let it be a signature move of that subclass, rather than draining attention and resources from what the rest of the monk class and other subclasses can do. Might need a replacement feature if so, but there's tons of options for that.

-----

So, early DP usage is weak, but it's actually similar to other classes in overall effectiveness. As long as you don't have to sacrifice your bonus action damage in order to use your DP options, I would not consider monk to be in a bad position.

The fourth level feat should give you decent options, on top of what you get from the subclass. (Only Hand has been noted as not doing well, and is going back for a major revision; the other subclasses will likely stay pretty much as they are.) And you should be able to use DP options most of the time by level 7, due to the new feature that gives you a short rest recovery in 1 minute.

So changes I would make:

• Move the bonus unarmed strikes from Martial Arts into the Attack Action itself, instead of an external bonus action. Flurry of Blows then simply gives a single unarmed strike as a bonus action. (The Mercy subclass would need some revision to account for this.)
• Give monk some small extra (probably defensive) benefit at level 1 aside from Unarmored Defense (which is functionally just leather armor).
• Make it clear that the monk's unarmed strikes and simple weapons can be treated as having the "finesse" property for the purposes of other game features, such as the Defensive Duelist feat

 

[strawbellebelle]

Level 1

• Monk: Martial Arts.
• Barbarian: 2 Rages
• Fighter: Fighting Style, Second Wind
• Rogue: Sneak Attack, Expertise
• Ranger: Spellcasting, Expertise

So:

• Monk's Martial Arts is roughly equivalent to the Fighting Style that fighter gets.
• Barbarian gets offense+defense in Rage. Two Rages should cover about as many fights as you're likely to get per day.
• Fighter has a little extra survivability with Second Wind, and a baseline fighting boost with their chosen Fighting Style.
• Rogue gets extra damage, though no attribute mod added on offhand attacks. They also get Expertise for non-combat stuff.
• Ranger gets a couple spells and Expertise.

Everyone gets a small boost to damage compared to non-martials, except possibly for ranger (depends on spells picked). Barbarian and fighter both get a little extra defense/survivability. Monk's Unarmored Defense is just armor without armor, so nothing beyond any other class just getting armor proficiency.

All classes get Weapon Mastery.

So at level 1, monk feels a little lacking. The other martial classes all got something on top of a very basic boost to offense, but all monk gets is Unarmored Defense.

I do adore how, right after I mentioned how "theorycrafting" tends to treat other classes' resources as infinite and permanent, we get "two Rages will last all day".

Also, in arguing that Martial Arts is "roughly equivalent" to Fighting Style...let's actually think about that. Fighting Styles are a reroll on heavy weapons, +2 damage to one-handed weapons, +2 attack on ranged weapons, or add ability modifier to a second weapon. The easiest-to-gauge is the last one, which equates to an effective +3. Except if you have a Fighter with two d6+3 attacks with two-weapon fighting, you can have a Monk also two-weapon fighting, getting two d6+3 attacks plus a d4 attack.

So at first level, the classes are actually quite balanced out, with Monks having the best damage potential at Level 1.

Level 2

• Monk: 2 Discipline Points (DP). +10 speed.
• Barbarian: Reckless Attack
• Fighter: Action Surge
• Rogue: Cunning Action
• Ranger: Favored Enemy, Fighting Style

So:

• Monk gets DP. You get 2 points per short rest, which might be expected to cover 3-6 rounds of combat. Out of one or two combats, you can make two extra attacks, have a couple rounds of extra defense or movement, or a balance of the above.
• Barbarian gets the feature that allows sacrificing defense for offense, infinitely usable.
• Fighter also gets a boost to a single turn over one to two fights, but that boost is an entire extra action. Which, at these levels means just one extra attack, or other actions which other classes might get as bonus actions. Fairly flexible option.
• Rogue can Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action, without cost. Reasonable tactical options.
• Ranger gets its Fighting Style one level later than fighter, and Favored Enemy gives it a free spell (Hunter's Mark), and free castings of that spell (up to Wis mod times). This is basically all the offensive bonuses it didn't get at level 1 with the other classes.

Everyone except rogue gets some sort of extra offense option. Rogue gets no-cost tactical options. Fighter's Action Surge is considered great, but it's actually kinda middling at this level. It becomes more impressive as the fighter gets to attack more at later levels.

And monk gets started on its DP track. At this level it can be considered two uses of Action Surge, where you can do extra damage, or move better, or dodge. It mainly seems lacking in comparison to the rogue, which can make those tactical options for free, while also using an offhand weapon (equivalent to the extra Martial Arts unarmed strike) with the Nick weapon mastery so as not to interfere with the use of its bonus action.

Monk has some flexibility in going offense or tactics, but while the offense boosts damage, the tactics decrease damage by using up the bonus action.

The conflict with the bonus action has been a long-standing friction issue, which Mike Mearls commented on in his YouTube videos many years ago. The early playtests briefly toyed with making offhand weapon attacks not use the bonus action at all, but then reverted that and instead allowed it as an option with a weapon mastery.

Since making use of the extra DP abilities costs a resource, it shouldn't have a secondary hidden cost of taking away your first level damage boost. (Note: I just realized that my spreadsheet didn't account for that damage reduction when FoB was not used. I'm not going to try to add it, but it does mean there's a slight drop in expected damage.) The rogue's Cunning Action also contests with using an offhand weapon, but it doesn't take away the rogue's basic damage boost (Sneak Attack), and doesn't make you pay for the option to do so.

* If I were to adjust this, I'd integrate the bonus unarmed strike into the Attack Action itself. That leaves the bonus action open for any Martial Discipline action without penalizing your Martial Arts bonus damage.

The classic problem with the "bonus action!" argument is that, especially at low levels, if a Monk uses Step of the Wind or Patient Defense, they're doing so because in that turn, damage is not the priority. Most of the time, these abilities are used to get out of sticky situations. (Plus the Monk already gets increased movement speed, so the "I should get to bonus attack and SotW" amounts to "I should get 50 extra feet of movement without any action-economy cost!"

And let's be clear: folding the bonus unarmed strike into the Attack action is purely about making a one-level Monk dip a better, more flexible Polearm Master. One level is a much cheaper cost than a feat (especially for non-Fighters), it comes with the bonus of Unarmed Defense for Dexterity-based characters who can invest in Wisdom (especially Rangers), and lumping it in with Attack means that a Fighter gets to make that extra strike twice with Action Surge.

Level 5

Extra attack for everyone.

Monk gets Stunning Strike. This is controversial, and the one overpowered feature of the PHB version. It was nerfed, but that nerf seems needed.

I am not sure what, if anything, I would revise with Stunning Strike. It's a complicated feature to consider. However it definitely feels like something that encourages draining your DP pool for, rather than using your other DP options. This is likely a primary culprit in diminishing the "feel" of the monk.

I think I would probably move Stunning Strike into the Warrior of the Hand subclass, using the level 6 feature. Let it be a signature move of that subclass, rather than draining attention and resources from what the rest of the monk class and other subclasses can do. Might need a replacement feature if so, but there's tons of options for that.

Correction: "Theorycrafters" see stun as a powerful condition, and therefore spam Stunning Strike rather than utilize more reliable options available to the subclasses. (And then complain that they're out of DP.) Every person I've played with who plays Monk has made use of all of their subclass's options, not simply Stunning Strike.

There's no reason it can't be part of the core class, because it is part of the Monk's ethos of flexibility. Limiting that tool to a single subclass is just about the desire to turn Monks into Pure DPR, because that's the only thing theorycrafters treat as important.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And yes, such people tend to be bizarrely hostile towards the suggestion that when you're actually playing the game, movement speed does make a difference and getting 1 less point of HP per level does not instantly make you squishy.


Also, on the topic of "what strengths/roles does the Monk have"...that isn't actually a difficult question, based on the Monk's features. If I was to sum up the Monk in one sentence:

The thing about that one sentence is:

• The options a Monk has and where they lean in terms of damage vs. support is highly dependent on their subclass, and because 99% of theorycrafting completely ignores subclasses, such folks dismiss the Monk's potential in such areas.
• "Support" and "movement" are strengths that are not easily defined in theorycrafting, therefore theorycrafting almost always treats such assets as being nonexistent.
• Theorycrafting also has a blatant tendency to obsess over the Monk having limited resources, while at the same time treating every other class as having infinite and omnipresent resources. (see: the earlier "barbarian always has rage/advantage" hypotheticals)

A lot of what you attribute to theorycrafters is folks actual play experience.

I’ve played and run the game for a lot of monk, rogues, rangers, paladins, and fighters. The Monk burn their limited resource noticeably, frustratingly, faster than the others in actual at the table play.
I don’t us stunning strike that much, but it absolutely isn’t just “theorycrafters” who see it as powerful. An entire round of an enemy not being able to do anything while having advantage on attacks against you is very powerful.

Right. Let's look at some of the early levels, step by step. At these low levels, everyone kinda sucks

This is a great breakdown. Thank you.

Level 1

• Monk: Martial Arts.
• Barbarian: 2 Rages
• Fighter: Fighting Style, Second Wind
• Rogue: Sneak Attack, Expertise
• Ranger: Spellcasting, Expertise

So:

• Monk's Martial Arts is roughly equivalent to the Fighting Style that fighter gets.
• Barbarian gets offense+defense in Rage. Two Rages should cover about as many fights as you're likely to get per day.
• Fighter has a little extra survivability with Second Wind, and a baseline fighting boost with their chosen Fighting Style.
• Rogue gets extra damage, though no attribute mod added on offhand attacks. They also get Expertise for non-combat stuff.
• Ranger gets a couple spells and Expertise.

Everyone gets a small boost to damage compared to non-martials, except possibly for ranger (depends on spells picked). Barbarian and fighter both get a little extra defense/survivability. Monk's Unarmored Defense is just armor without armor, so nothing beyond any other class just getting armor proficiency.

All classes get Weapon Mastery.

So at level 1, monk feels a little lacking. The other martial classes all got something on top of a very basic boost to offense, but all monk gets is Unarmored Defense.

Level 2

• Monk: 2 Discipline Points (DP). +10 speed.
• Barbarian: Reckless Attack
• Fighter: Action Surge
• Rogue: Cunning Action
• Ranger: Favored Enemy, Fighting Style

So:

• Monk gets DP. You get 2 points per short rest, which might be expected to cover 3-6 rounds of combat. Out of one or two combats, you can make two extra attacks, have a couple rounds of extra defense or movement, or a balance of the above.
• Barbarian gets the feature that allows sacrificing defense for offense, infinitely usable.
• Fighter also gets a boost to a single turn over one to two fights, but that boost is an entire extra action. Which, at these levels means just one extra attack, or other actions which other classes might get as bonus actions. Fairly flexible option.
• Rogue can Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action, without cost. Reasonable tactical options.
• Ranger gets its Fighting Style one level later than fighter, and Favored Enemy gives it a free spell (Hunter's Mark), and free castings of that spell (up to Wis mod times). This is basically all the offensive bonuses it didn't get at level 1 with the other classes.

Everyone except rogue gets some sort of extra offense option. Rogue gets no-cost tactical options. Fighter's Action Surge is considered great, but it's actually kinda middling at this level. It becomes more impressive as the fighter gets to attack more at later levels.

And monk gets started on its DP track. At this level it can be considered two uses of Action Surge, where you can do extra damage, or move better, or dodge. It mainly seems lacking in comparison to the rogue, which can make those tactical options for free, while also using an offhand weapon (equivalent to the extra Martial Arts unarmed strike) with the Nick weapon mastery so as not to interfere with the use of its bonus action.

Monk has some flexibility in going offense or tactics, but while the offense boosts damage, the tactics decrease damage by using up the bonus action.

The conflict with the bonus action has been a long-standing friction issue, which Mike Mearls commented on in his YouTube videos many years ago. The early playtests briefly toyed with making offhand weapon attacks not use the bonus action at all, but then reverted that and instead allowed it as an option with a weapon mastery.

Since making use of the extra DP abilities costs a resource, it shouldn't have a secondary hidden cost of taking away your first level damage boost. (Note: I just realized that my spreadsheet didn't account for that damage reduction when FoB was not used. I'm not going to try to add it, but it does mean there's a slight drop in expected damage.) The rogue's Cunning Action also contests with using an offhand weapon, but it doesn't take away the rogue's basic damage boost (Sneak Attack), and doesn't make you pay for the option to do so.

* If I were to adjust this, I'd integrate the bonus unarmed strike into the Attack Action itself. That leaves the bonus action open for any Martial Discipline action without penalizing your Martial Arts bonus damage.

Ranger can dual wield + Hunter's Mark for ~3d6 + 2xMod. Rogue can dual wield for ~3d6 + 2xMod. Barbarian can dual wield for 2x6 + 2xMod + 2xRage (roughly equivalent to another d6). A dual wielding monk could do 3d6 + 2xMod, while still having options open for using DP. You would have to sacrifice the offhand attack (unless you went 1d4 instead of 1d6), but at least it's not reducing a feature you already gained.

Level 3

Everyone gets subclasses. I won't try to get into them, as they're too varied.

Monk gets Deflect Missiles, which is a low value feature, which is why it can be stacked with the subclasses.

Level 4

Monk gets Slow Fall, which is basically a ribbon feature here. No other class gets a feature at an ASI level, that I can think of.

Everyone gets an ASI. Because all level 4 feats are half feats now, you can reach 18 in your primary stat at this point if you focused on building that way. I'll assume there's no major differential in that regard here.

So, while we can maybe spend another ASI point on a stat, the real factor at this level is your first feat. There are many options available, and what's actually chosen will be heavily player, character concept, and table-dependent. However, what is it that you "can" do? I'm mostly focusing on monk here.

All feats are from the Expert Classes playtest.

Charger improves the distance you can Dash, which is a nice bonus for Step of the Wind. Rogue can also use it with Cunning Action, though I'd expect them to be more likely to want to Hide for Sneak Attack (unless you're in a sucky game where there's never anywhere to hide). This is a lower priority for the other martial classes (except maybe Eagle barbarian).

Charger also gives you an extra 1d8 (or a 10' shove) when you move in to attack a target. This works very well with monk, since Step of the Wind also provides a Disengage, so you can move away afterwards, giving you room to charge in again next turn. This is basically giving you 1d8 damage as a bonus action with SotW, on top of the unarmed strike that FoB gives you.

Defensive Duelist is interesting. It's usable by a monk using a dagger in the offhand (using it for Nick, to leave the bonus action free). More interesting would be considering that the monk's unarmed strikes are essentially a finesse weapon, since you're allowed to use Dex for them rather than Str. (Or maybe all simple weapons, too, for monk.) If so, this would be a nice defensive boost for monk.

Grappler is a reasonable choice. If you're not dual wielding or using a staff in two hands, you always have a hand free to grapple, and none of the features interfere with your bonus actions. You can grapple as part of an attack, so it doesn't interfere with your damage output or bonus action. This gives you advantage on further attacks, plus being able to easily move grappled creatures around.

Great Weapon Master does nothing for monk, though it's one of the better offensive choices for several other builds. I would not be surprised to see a barbarian or fighter take it at this level. Same for Polearm Master.

Skulker might be taken by a Shadow monk.

Speedster feeds the need for a faster monk, but getting it probably mostly depends on whether you want to be able to ignore difficult terrain when you Dash (SotW). It can certainly be useful, but it's also a niche requirement. Probably not my first choice at level 4.


So Charger and Grappler both seem like good options that would be regularly used, with Defensive Duelist being added if the monk's unarmed strikes (and simple weapons?) can be considered finesse weapons. These are not major boosts to damage, but they're solid tactical options that fit with various approaches to playing a monk.

Level 5

Extra attack for everyone.

Monk gets Stunning Strike. This is controversial, and the one overpowered feature of the PHB version. It was nerfed, but that nerf seems needed.

I am not sure what, if anything, I would revise with Stunning Strike. It's a complicated feature to consider. However it definitely feels like something that encourages draining your DP pool for, rather than using your other DP options. This is likely a primary culprit in diminishing the "feel" of the monk.

I think I would probably move Stunning Strike into the Warrior of the Hand subclass, using the level 6 feature. Let it be a signature move of that subclass, rather than draining attention and resources from what the rest of the monk class and other subclasses can do. Might need a replacement feature if so, but there's tons of options for that.

-----

So, early DP usage is weak, but it's actually similar to other classes in overall effectiveness. As long as you don't have to sacrifice your bonus action damage in order to use your DP options, I would not consider monk to be in a bad position.

The fourth level feat should give you decent options, on top of what you get from the subclass. (Only Hand has been noted as not doing well, and is going back for a major revision; the other subclasses will likely stay pretty much as they are.) And you should be able to use DP options most of the time by level 7, due to the new feature that gives you a short rest recovery in 1 minute.

So changes I would make:

• Move the bonus unarmed strikes from Martial Arts into the Attack Action itself, instead of an external bonus action. Flurry of Blows then simply gives a single unarmed strike as a bonus action. (The Mercy subclass would need some revision to account for this.)
• Give monk some small extra (probably defensive) benefit at level 1 aside from Unarmored Defense (which is functionally just leather armor).
• Make it clear that the monk's unarmed strikes and simple weapons can be treated as having the "finesse" property for the purposes of other game features, such as the Defensive Duelist feat

So in my rewrite, monk gets lesser at-wills versions of echo of their major ki features. (I experimented with making each ki feature have an “until the end of your next turn” effect instead and it just didn’t work)

Martials Arts stays as is, step of the wind gets the ability to ignore difficult terrain when they dash and to spend 15ft of movement to move 5ft without OAs, and deflect missiles becomes delfect attacks and starts at level 1 with no counter attack until level 5. They can spend 1 Focus Die (I replaced ki with focus dice) at level 2 to dodge as a bonus action, and increase the dmage deflected when they use deflect attacks by their focus die.

Later at 5 and 11 they upgrade their main focus features instead of knowing stunning strike, and they can learn regimens, turning most of thier secondary class features into features they can learn and practice, with a limited number practiced at a time (basically known and active infusions mechanics), so a lot of stuff is optional but still available.

I am waiting to further develop it until I see the final Monk in the 2024PHB.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You seem to think there isn't this blatant strain of bizarre hostility towards the creators whenever there is something that a certain segment of the playerbase disapproves of, or even when they flat-out invent things the creators have given no suggestion of doing just so they can lambast the creators over this invented scenario that hasn't even happened.

If this sort of hostility didn't exist, you wouldn't have had multiple D&D YouTubers encouraging their followers to spam and abuse the survey results at their beck and whim because the Monk changes weren't what they wanted. You wouldn't have people treating the Monk changes as a massive nerf because one feature can't be spammed on every attack. There absolutely are people who take one class in a TTRPG not being what they want it to be as a personal offense, and the same for people who enjoy that class for what it is, because that means the creators are less likely to change the class to suit those people and those people alone.

And yes, such people tend to be bizarrely hostile towards the suggestion that when you're actually playing the game, movement speed does make a difference and getting 1 less point of HP per level does not instantly make you squishy.

Pretty sure the designers asked us for feedback and people with platforms get to use it to mobilize their bases toward changes they want. That's not hostility, that's literally what WotC requested.