What's so Hard About Grappling?

[Celebrim]

It is to laugh. Let's see it.

That's me, always a barrel of laughs.

Quite honestly, the AOO is the least of the issues.

Which must make that the least of the responces.

Um, dude, they already can do that. Melee touch attacks are keyed off of strength -- whether they should be or not! -- and include base attack bonus, which adds up to an ogre having a +8 on his touch attack against a pixie's 15 touch AC. The clumsy ogre only needs a 7 to succeed at grabbing a nimble pixie.

Which is a 30% chance of failure that he wouldn't have were we to do away with the touch attack. More importantly, its a chance of failure that we can't really incorporate in the general case into a single d20 die throw. That 30% chance of failure remains the same even if the pixie's grapple check is so low that a -5 modifier to the Ogre's would be completely overwhelmed by the Ogres bonus (ei, that the Ogre would still have a 95% chance of success).

The argument you've just made doesn't actually demonstrate that the need for a touch attack is 'wrong'. In fact, words and phrases like 'whether they should be or not' and 'only' imply that the touch attack mechanic doesn't in your opinion go far enough, and not that it should be done away with. And since my thesis was, "If anything, the rules aren't complex enough.", I can safely reply to that, "Ok."

They don't really balance anything, but go ahead.

That doesn't really say anything, but I'll trust that you will anyway.

It's not really the 3.x changes that cause the problem -- it's that you have to look up whatever you want to do on the list and see if you can do it at all, and if so, find out how -- because it's not the usual way...The point is that grapples are *different* from the usual rules, so learning one system in no way informs the other.

I believe that is my point. Grappling isn't the 'usual' way. It does something that normal attack resolution in D&D doesn't do - apply a condition to the opponent. And the condition 'grappled' is a particularly complex one because we have in our head some understanding of what it means. Naturally the grapple rules are different than the usual rules, because they are different things we are trying to simulate.

The thing I typically note about complaints about the grappling system is that they don't focus on how complex the condition grappled is. They focus on the slightly different resolution mechanic, and ask silly things like, "Why does it have to be this complicated?" while simultaneously asking, "Why doesn't grappling have rules for throws?" That's like asking, "Why is D&D combat so complicated?" and "Why can't I have called shots?"

If the grapple rules used the same set of rules as the rest of the game, it would work fine -- but it doesn't do that.

Because, the rules for the rest of the game don't simulate anything that conceptually looks like grappling.

For example, the Star Wars SE vehicle combat system has dogfighting, which is the vehicular equivalent of a grapple.

And this is a good example because vehicals are conceptually quite similar to creatures? So, what's the vehicular equivalent to a 'pin', under the rules? I would imagine that the nimbleness of your craft modifies your Piloting check - ei its harder for a freighter (other than the Millenium falcon) to initiate a dogfight than a fighter. Which is fine, but in conceptual grappling I have to deal with both nimbleness (can you catch me?) and strength (can you hold me?). This is not a problem with conceptual dogfighting at its most simple level, but I suspect expert dogfighters who actually can conceptualize dogfighting in a non-abstract way _would_ have a problem with the indicated rules. And vehical rules will have to worry about, "Can my X-Wing dogfight a Death Star so that it can't both shoot at me and at the planet?", they never have to worry about things like, "Can I cast a spell while dogfighting?", or "Can I pull an item out of my pack while dogfighting?", to say nothing of, "Can I trip while dogfighting? Sunder? Disarm? Move the dogfight? Throw my opponent?" and so forth. Or to the extent that they do, the rules will rapidly approach the complexity of the grapple rules. For example, multiple opponents dogfighting in an asteroid field, where the combatants are trying to utilize the asteroids as cover, avoid asteroids, and move the dogfight through the field to reach the crashed passenger liner where they wish to attempt to land the craft aboard a platform while still possibly being technically in the dogfight.

 

[billd91]

IMO, if you need a flow chart to explain a rule, you need to simplify the rule.

Then you don't want to call in offboard artillery in Advanced Squad Leader. Trust me.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

PCs grappling humanoids isn't hard* (and vice-versa), but some of the "corner case" stuff and wierdo monsters really do screw with the grapple rules a bit. I think I'd rather have non-humanoid monsters use special, simplified rules for any "grappling" they do, and have humanoids use a simplified version of the 3.5E rules (for speed - they're not brain-hurting, but there are clearly too many steps - in 4E maybe you can turn the whole grapple into an attack against reflex defense or something - Also, you really should be able to do SOMETHING the round you grapple someone, instead of having to wait for next round).

So I mostly agree with Lizard, they're not too hard, for most cases. But they definately could do with streamlining for speed. What Lizard doesn't take into account in these various "3.5E wasn't hard! You whiners got my game simplified!" threads he's started, of course, is that whilst he is, as much as he may deny it, a "system master", most GMs and players aren't and indeed have no interest in becoming such, so as objectively correct as he might be, it's not really an objective thing.

* - Note that I thought Star Fleet Battles with all the trimmings was a really good game, so I may be biased.

 

[billd91]

The worst part is that monsters never fail grapple checks. Attack -> improved grab -> +27 grapple modifier -> PC wishes he was swallowed whole.

And since you'll never win a grapple check, you don't get to play any more while your friends have to save you quickly because you're going to die.

I'm running the Savage Tides adventure path, and after a while I just stopped grappling because everything has improved grab and I'm tired of grappling by now.

It greatly magnifies the "out of the sweet spot" problem by having grapple monsters be soooooo much better at grappling than non-specialized PC (even at relatively low levels).

PS

Quite frankly, this sort of thing doesn't bother me. If the PCs aren't prepared to fight the big grabby monsters and deal with their mass and power, they aren't preparing very well. Plus, these abilities (big grapple modifiers and improved grab) aren't there, then a lot of big and tough animals aren't much more than big hit point sinks to bash.

Adventuring is dangerous business. If the PCs are finding it too dangerous, there's always picking up a trade...

 

[Silent Cartographer]

As far as I am concerned, the 3E grapple rules are complete ass.

I'm quite comfortable with this view, as the only people who really count in my game, my players, all agree and have let me know on a regular basis (for several years now) just how assy grappling is. This is despite the fact that we understand and successfully use the rules as written.

He-Man Dungeon Master chest beating doesn't impress me otherwise. Mastery of the 3.5 grappling rules does not put hairs on your chest; but it might make a nice hairshirt...

 

[adwyn]

Derren: When the defender is grappling and the attacker isn't, from the combat modifier section, the defender is flatfooted and (I love this part) "Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

That's for ranged attacks only. For melee attacks the defender simply loses Dex bonus to AC.

I actually like the grapple rules, but having played with a variety of groups I notice that there seems to be some disconnect in the finer points of interpretation and implementation so I guess I'm in the "needs at least some rewrite in order to clarify" camp.

 

[Counterspin]

I love how people think that they can make things easier for other people by suggesting that they're stupid.

"This is complicated"
"No it's not you big baby"
"Oh, alright, I see now, you're right, it is easy!"

Anyway, from a game design standpoint, grapple is difficult to use because a large part of the D&D population find it difficult to use. There's no rubric to grade usability other than usability.

 

[Storminator]

Quite frankly, this sort of thing doesn't bother me. If the PCs aren't prepared to fight the big grabby monsters and deal with their mass and power, they aren't preparing very well. Plus, these abilities (big grapple modifiers and improved grab) aren't there, then a lot of big and tough animals aren't much more than big hit point sinks to bash.

Adventuring is dangerous business. If the PCs are finding it too dangerous, there's always picking up a trade...

I find there aren't many ways to be prepared for grappling. Max STR, max Escape Artist, figure out a size modifier (Enlarge, etc), then get Freedom of Movement. There are a couple non-core feats, but that's a pretty limited set.

In other words, there's nothing you can do.

PS

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Alternate Grapple rules, take 2,000,403:

Make a touch attack, which provokes an AoO. If you succeed, make opposed attack roll, larger creature gains a +4 bonus (this is the grapple check). If attacker wins, target is grappled. This condition works like entangled, but anyone inside a grapple also loses his Reach.
While entangled this way, the target can do any action it desires, provided it first succeeds a Grapple check against any opponent it is with in Grapple.
Exceptions:
- To deal damage to another target in the grapple, a grapple check is sufficient. This attack can only be done with light weapons or unarmed/natural attacks. You can make full attacks this way.
- For escaping out of a Grapple, the target can use its Escape Artist skill instead of a grapple check.

Special Option for the grappler:
- Pin: To pin a target in grapple, the attacker must make a grapple check as a standard action. This condition lasts one round (until the start of the attackers next action). The victim loses its dexterity bonus to AC and is considered prone. It can only attempt a standard action to escape the Pin (via a Grapple check). Casting spells is impossible, unless they require no components. If the target escapes its pin this way, it can act as usual for a grappled creature (except that it has only a standard action remaining)
- Throw: If grapple check succeeds, this ends the grapple and throws the target with a range increment of 10 ft. Targets deal their unarmed damage when hitting another target.

For implementing Rake or Constrict, simply grant additional attacks.

 

[Dausuul]

IMO, one could dramatically improve the grapple rules by rewriting them to look something like this, although this is just off the top of my head and would undoubtedly need fine-tuning. The most important thing is to completely separate grapple checks from attacks. Using a weapon of any type, including a natural one, should follow the normal attack rules. A grapple check ought to be a separate thing.

(Grapple checks are as in the normal rules. However, the Weapon Finesse feat allows you to use Dexterity in place of Strength when grappling.)

Initiating a Grapple: Grappling is initiated with a touch attack at -4 followed by an opposed grapple check, as a standard action. If the touch attack misses, the target gets an AoO and the grapple attempt fails.

Special Grappling Actions: You can make a grapple check as a standard action, opposed by your opponent's grapple check, to escape a grapple, pin a foe, or attempt a crush.

If you succeed on a pin attempt, your foe is rendered helpless until the start of your next turn.

A successful crush attempt inflicts nonlethal damage based on your size (no damage for Diminutive or Fine grapplers, 1 for Tiny, 1d2 for Small, 1d4 for Medium, 1d8 for Large, 2d8 for Huge, 4d8 for Gargantuan, 6d8 for Colossal), plus your Strength modifier.

Note the lack of options to substitute a grapple check for an attack. This is a huge source of confusion with the 3.5E rules, especially when iterative attacks are factored in.

Effects of Grappling: Your reach is reduced to zero, and you cannot use reach or ranged weapons while grappling.

Yes, this means you can use a greatsword while grappling. Medieval training manuals showed many close-combat maneuvers to be performed with a greatsword, such as bashing the enemy's face in with the hilt. Also note the lack of any special rules governing attacks while grappling--no using a grapple check in place of an attack roll, for instance.

Grappling creatures lose their Dexterity bonus to AC, but all attacks against grapplers are at -4, whether from inside or outside the grapple. This stacks with the usual penalty for making ranged attacks into melee. If a grappler takes up more spaces on the board than its opponent, the penalty only applies to attacks made into squares that both combatants occupy.

Key element here--the effects of grappling do not change depending on whether you're being attacked from inside or outside the grapple. Also, rogues are now potentially very dangerous grapplers, since they're apt to take advantage of their easy access to your kidney.

If you try to move while grappling, you move at half speed, and the weight of your opponent is added to your encumbrance. If the total exceeds the maximum amount you can carry, you are unable to move. Allied grapplers can divide an opponent's weight between them.

You cannot perform spells with somatic components while grappling, and casting other spells requires a Concentration check at a DC of 15 plus the spell level.

Improved Grab ability: You can initiate a grapple after a successful natural weapon attack. The natural weapon attack takes the place of the usual touch attack, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity if it misses.

Furthermore, if you grapple a foe using your natural weapon, you can grab and hold rather than initiating a full grapple. You suffer a -20 penalty on your grapple checks when you do this. The foe is considered to be grappled normally, but you do not lose your Dexterity bonus, your reach is unaffected, your movement speed is not halved, and you can use reach and ranged weapons normally. All the other effects of grappling still apply to you.

You cannot attack with your natural weapon while using it to grab and hold. If you use that natural weapon, your opponent is immediately released from the grapple.

Constrict ability: This ability increases the amount of damage you inflict with a crush attempt, and changes it to lethal damage. Furthermore, if you have used Improved Grab to grab and hold an enemy, you can make a crush attempt against that enemy as a free action once per round.

Rake ability: You get extra natural weapons that you can only use against a foe you have grappled.

Improved Grapple feat: You gain +4 to all grapple checks, do not suffer the usual -4 penalty on the touch attack to initiate a grapple, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity if the touch attack fails. You can also inflict lethal damage with a crush attempt.