What's so Hard About Grappling?

[Nebulous]

I also dislike how much of a disadvantage it is for a creature to grapple. BBEG-type beasty has improved grab, and grabs someone up. They now no longer threaten (no AoOs and cannot attack adjacent creatures), are sneak attackable (no dex, and the chance to hit a friend only applies to missile attacks), and are easier to hit. Unless then can easily manage with the -20 or have swallow whole, maintaining the grab is pointless.

I'm curious to see how certain 4e monsters are designed as "grappler experts." Their stat block might make exceptions to the normal grappling rules?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Here are my questions using an owlbear as an example (taking -20):


Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab



1.) Let's say on a full attack the owlbear successfully grabs someone, can he use his remaining claw and bite attack against the grabbed enemy or only other creatures?

Yes. These attacks are made with a -4 penalty.

SRD sez: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

However, there is an issue here: do natural weapons count as weapons for the following statement?

SRD sez: You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

I read it as meaning that you can't perform two-weapon fighting while grappled, although I can see how someone might read it differently. This isn't exactly a problem with grappling per se, but more a problem with the wording of that sentence and definitions in general.

2.) If it begins its turn with a grabbed opponent, can it make a grapple check to damage the grabbed opponent, and still use its remaining claw and bite attack?

No. It's a full-round action to attack with its full complement of natural weapons. If it makes a grapple check to damage, it's not attacking with natural weapons, but is grappling the character and damages that character according to which attack (in this case, a claw) it grabbed him with. If it were a monster without improved grab, it would only do unarmed damage (i.e. 1d4 nonlethal). An owlbear has a BAB of +5, so it doesn't get any iterative attacks. It therefore gets one grapple check per round. It has the choice of grappling for 1d6+5, or making its three natural attacks at -4 to hit with each.

3.) Can it have two grabbed characters and make a grapple check against each one in the same round, and attack with its bite, or can it make only one grapple check a round due to BAB +5?

No, only one grapple check per round. However, it can hold one creature using one of its natural weapons (presumably a claw, at a -20, for a total of -6 grapple) while using its remaining attacks to hit an adjacent character.

edit: aha, I see. You were assuming that the owlbear was taking -20.

 

[Mark Hope]

Here are my questions using an owlbear as an example (taking -20):


Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab



1.) Let's say on a full attack the owlbear successfully grabs someone, can he use his remaining claw and bite attack against the grabbed enemy or only other creatures?

By taking the -20 and using the improved grab ability to just hold an opponent, the owlbear no longer conducts the grapple normally. It sacrifices the option to deal damage to this grappled in foe in return for retaining the use of its other attacks and not being treated as grappled. It can still attack other targets with its remaining claw and bite, though. If the owlbear had not taken the -20 and elected to conduct the grapple normally, it could have used one of its natural attacks against its grappled foe, but not against any other targets. It can't use more than one natural attack against its grappled foe because it doesn't have rake (or some similar ability.)

2.) If it begins its turn with a grabbed opponent, can it make a grapple check to damage the grabbed opponent, and still use its remaining claw and bite attack?

As above, if the owlbear has chosen to just hold its grappled target, it cannot damage it. It can, however, use its remaining claw and bite attack against other targets. If it does not take the -20 to just hold the target, it can damage it, but not attack other targets.

3.) Can it have two grabbed characters and make a grapple check against each one in the same round, and attack with its bite, or can it make only one grapple check a round due to BAB +5?

It can grapple two characters and still use its bite (although the allowed target of the bite depends on whether it has elected to just hold one or both of its targets, as outlined above.) The (imho silly) rule about making one grapple check per 5 points of BAB only applies when the creature is already grappling and wishes to substitute grapple checks for attacks in order to carry out the various options allowed to a grappling character, like pin etc.

Couldn't be simpler...

 

[Mark Hope]

... snip Dr Awkward's take on things...

Needless to say, I don't really agree with any of the above .

In a minute, someone else will post a third, entirely different set of answers. I love it.

You poor, 4e-loving fools! Soon you will never be able to enjoy the wonders of a 3.5 grapple discussion ever again!! Cry! Cry and know despair!!!

 

[rkanodia]

My point was that if you gave the average Joe a baseball bat or a knife (let alone more advanced "simple" weapons), he'd expose himself just as much attacking with that as he would with a bare-handed punch. Probably more. If a first-level D&D character is assumed to have been combat-training enough to be proficient in "simple" weapons, he should be proficient in the simplest weapons of all, his fists. No, he shouldn't do very much damage with them without special training (d4 or lower is fine), but there's no reason to bring special AoOs into the equation.

I think there's just no need for AoOs on an unarmed attack, ever. There's already a penalty for fighting an armed person when you are unarmed. It's called, you brought your bare fists to a sword fight; enjoy eating my 2d6 damage, dumbass!

 

[Voadam]

Here are my questions using an owlbear as an example (taking -20):


Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab



1.) Let's say on a full attack the owlbear successfully grabs someone, can he use his remaining claw and bite attack against the grabbed enemy or only other creatures?

Ambiguous. With the -20 IG it is clear the Owlbear can use its other attacks against other opponents but unclear whether it can do so only against other opponents. If it does not use the -20 it is clear it cannot attack other opponents but ambiguous on whether it can continue with its full attack as full attacking with natural weapons is not on the list of actions that can be done in a grapple though iteratives do explicitly provide extra attacks and you can use a natural weapon in place of an attack.

2.) If it begins its turn with a grabbed opponent, can it make a grapple check to damage the grabbed opponent, and still use its remaining claw and bite attack?

Ambiguous. If it can do a full attack with all its natural weapons one of the grapple options is to do a grapple check for damage in place of an attack. It can definitely do the grapple for damage, but whether it can follow up with other claws or must rely solely upon iteratives for extra attacks is not absolutely clear.

3.) Can it have two grabbed characters and make a grapple check against each one in the same round, and attack with its bite, or can it make only one grapple check a round due to BAB +5?

If it did the -20 Improved grab I believe it clearly can then grab another PC with its other claw. What it can then do depends on a lot of judgment calls in interpreting the rules. If it must use iteratives in the grapple then it cannot use multiple natural weapon attacks and can only grapple to damage one of them. If it can use full natural weapon attacks in a grapple then it can claw each of them and bite a third opponent if it did the -20 grabs on the two PCs.

 

[Voadam]

In a minute, someone else will post a third, entirely different set of answers. I love it.

Happy to oblige.

 

[Greylock]

Why I don't like Grapple? This:

The worst part is that monsters never fail grapple checks. Attack -> improved grab -> +27 grapple modifier -> PC wishes he was swallowed whole. And since you'll never win a grapple check, you don't get to play any more while your friends have to save you quickly because you're going to die.

IMO, if you need a flow chart to explain a rule, you need to simplify the rule.

Or you're one of umpteen monsters with Improved Grab, in which case you not only skip the AOO, but the touch attack as well...Again, unless you have Improved grab that is. And, as mentioned above, let's not forget the movement part, which draws an AOO. Unless, again, you have improved grab, in which case the victim is pulled into your square and suffers AOO's from all your buddies, but not you. Better hope your buddies don't have improved grab too, 'cos then you're going to bounce the victim around like a ping pong ball, drawing AOO's each time...Don't change in play? Unless, of course you're a raging barbarian, under the effect of any number of buffs to your strength, enlarged, enfeebled, or any number of other modifiers which can affect a grapple check...Now, at what point does my constrict damage come into play? Or my rake damage? How many times can a Behir grapple you in a single round? An enhanced Giant Constrictor Snake gains iterative attacks. If it chooses to make an unarmed strike attack, and succeeds, does it now get multiple constrict damages?

It should be hard, not easy, for the big lumbering brute to grab the quick little creature darting around it.

Improved Grab: You don't draw an AoO when starting a grapple.
Improved Grab Defence: Yes, you do.
Improveder Grab: No, you don't.
Improveder Grab Defence: Oh yes, you do.
Improvedest Grab....

"This is complicated"
"No it's not you big baby"
"Oh, alright, I see now, you're right, it is easy!"

PCs who get grappled by monsters are just boned, period.

I think the problem with grapple is that a) it's a subsystem, and b) it has like 15 options. Neither would be all bad by itself, but when combined, you have trouble. Since it's a subsystem, you're always going to have one player or another who isn't familiar with the rules, and then since it has like 15 options, it takes a significant chunk of time to explain to that player what exactly they can do in the grapple... It's just too much of a hassle for little payoff.

But most especially, this:

1. AOO: Because grabbing someone opens you up to attacks more than sticking your sword two feet into their midsection?

2. Touch attack: I don't think I've ever tried to hug someone and FAILED TO MAKE CONTACT.

3. Grapple checks: The reason this is dumb is that the check is all strength and size. Anyone who's taken a self-defense class knows that the most important aspects in breaking someone's hold are reaction speed and knowing what the hell you're doing.

People who like to repeat over and over again that the Grapple rules are realistic, have obviously never grappled anyone in real life, in a real do-or-die situation. I have, many times, and ZombieRoboNinja's remarks are dead on.

hth

 

[Jhulae]

The worst part is that monsters never fail grapple checks. Attack -> improved grab -> +27 grapple modifier -> PC wishes he was swallowed whole.

Unless said PC *already* has a light piercing/slashing weapon in hand/readied or can do a lot of damage some other way to the monster that swallowed her, I seriously doubt that. Swallowed PCs are royally screwed.