What's so Hard About Grappling?

[coyote6]

The obvious extension of this is that everyone is "proficient" in unarmed fighting, in that they don't grant AOOs or take to-hit penalties when they punch someone. (Heck, every PC race in the game knows how to swing a morningstar at somebody in combat, but only monks know how to throw a punch?)

The reason punching or grappling someone without special training (i.e., a feat or ability like Improved Unarmed Strike, etc.) draws an AoO is that the target is assumed to be armed. Grabbing or punching someone with your bare hand, when said someone is carrying a sword and knows how to use it is dangerous; you can get cut by your opponent's defensive maneuver. An unarmed target (without special training) can't make an AoO against you, so grabbing them is easy.

(If the foe does have Improved Unarmed Strike or the like, then the foe's good enough with the punching to be able to effectively counterattack your relatively clumsy grabs/punches.)

The rules are marvelously efficient & realistic enough, IMO; they just aren't quite efficient enough, especially with the various corner cases (natural weapons, etc.).

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

Derren: When the defender is grappling and the attacker isn't, from the combat modifier section, the defender is flatfooted and (I love this part) "Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

That means you either hit your friend or your foe, but either way you sneak attack them.

Brilliant!

That condition only applies to ranged attacks.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

The reason punching or grappling someone without special training (i.e., a feat or ability like Improved Unarmed Strike, etc.) draws an AoO is that the target is assumed to be armed. Grabbing or punching someone with your bare hand, when said someone is carrying a sword and knows how to use it is dangerous; you can get cut by your opponent's defensive maneuver. An unarmed target (without special training) can't make an AoO against you, so grabbing them is easy.

(If the foe does have Improved Unarmed Strike or the like, then the foe's good enough with the punching to be able to effectively counterattack your relatively clumsy grabs/punches.)

My point was that if you gave the average Joe a baseball bat or a knife (let alone more advanced "simple" weapons), he'd expose himself just as much attacking with that as he would with a bare-handed punch. Probably more. If a first-level D&D character is assumed to have been combat-training enough to be proficient in "simple" weapons, he should be proficient in the simplest weapons of all, his fists. No, he shouldn't do very much damage with them without special training (d4 or lower is fine), but there's no reason to bring special AoOs into the equation.

 

[Imp]

But average Joe is probably not D&D-proficient in the baseball bat or the knife. That even moderately trained armed opponents have an advantage over dedicated martial artists isn't usually considered a controversial point, which is what the unarmed AoO models. It's also perfectly possible to have proficiency in weapons that doesn't translate into being good with your fists.

Also the whole idea of leaving openings in your guard through incompetence is not modelled in standard D&D (maybe in the class-based defense rules)

 

[Jhulae]

I wonder if more monsters are expected to take the -20 to let them 1) not be sneakable 2) use other attacks.

I attacked PCs with a Tojanaida, and had it take -20 just to make the combat more "interesting" and it was a better move for the TJ. It goto to threaten the rest of the party, it got to hold somone, it got to avoid getting sneaked

Take that -20!

Where's the mention of that -20 modifier, please? I can't seem to find it.

 

[Mark Hope]

Where's the mention of that -20 modifier, please? I can't seem to find it.

Improved Grab (Ex): ... The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

 

[Steely Dan]

Improved Grab (Ex): ... The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

Here are my questions using an owlbear as an example (taking -20):


Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab



1.) Let's say on a full attack the owlbear successfully grabs someone, can he use his remaining claw and bite attack against the grabbed enemy or only other creatures?

2.) If it begins its turn with a grabbed opponent, can it make a grapple check to damage the grabbed opponent, and still use its remaining claw and bite attack?

3.) Can it have two grabbed characters and make a grapple check against each one in the same round, and attack with its bite, or can it make only one grapple check a round due to BAB +5?

 

[Nebulous]

The solution? Figure out some way for grappling to follow similar rules to everything else. Call is "grab" instead of "grapple" if you have to, but make it work the same way as things players are familiar with so at least they'll know what they're doing when Grabby McTentacles comes lunging at their characters.

Grabby McTentacles! I just had to write that. And i completely agree with your post. I've used the grappling rules for many years now and never really liked them. For all the reasons outlined in this and other threads. We understand them (mostly), we use them, we just don't like them. Streamlining it somehow is the way to go. The SWSE rules are a step in the right direction.

 

[Dausuul]

My answer to that is, "No." Yes, the grappling rules could be simpler. But, simpler rules would involve more abstraction, and most of the special case questions which make grappling actually complicated would not in fact go away. Or, if you could make them go away, the result would be something that didn't have alot of the features one would expect grappling to have.

The single biggest problem with the grapple rules is the bit about substituting grapple checks for attacks. Removing this would drastically simplify the system, without sacrificing one scrap of realism.

 

[jaer]

And they don't do enough damage for it to really help. If you're 20 points behind in grapple check, even doing 10 points of damage (fairly ordinary non-melee-guy AoO damage) isn't enough to make a difference, and you've blown a feat for it.

PS

Heck, even as a fighter with the feat, it didn't save me last night. +5 strength mod, +8 from my Battle Stance feat, and a +19 from my AoO, rolled a 17...still got grappled!

What makes grapple's difficult: the list of things you can do while grappled. It doesn't happen often enough for us to have the list memorized, so any grapple that happens results in play needing to be stopped to figure out what the person can and can't do, what needs a grapple check to do it. Since pulling out a light weapon requires a successful grapple check, once the purple worm grabs me, I have no chance of pulling out a weapon to cut my way out of the gullet.

I also dislike how much of a disadvantage it is for a creature to grapple. BBEG-type beasty has improved grab, and grabs someone up. They now no longer threaten (no AoOs and cannot attack adjacent creatures), are sneak attackable (no dex, and the chance to hit a friend only applies to missile attacks), and are easier to hit. Unless then can easily manage with the -20 or have swallow whole, maintaining the grab is pointless.

Some creatures seem to be able to constrict (or some other special abilites)the round that they establish the grabble, others seem to have to wait until following rounds to do this. When a grappler can do it that round, I have been having them grab, use their special, and drop simply because maintaining the grab round after round was more of a pain then helpful.