What's so Hard About Grappling?

[Benimoto]

I think the problem with grapple is that a) it's a subsystem, and b) it has like 15 options. Neither would be all bad by itself, but when combined, you have trouble. Since it's a subsystem, you're always going to have one player or another who isn't familiar with the rules, and then since it has like 15 options, it takes a significant chunk of time to explain to that player what exactly they can do in the grapple.

Plus, of the 15 options, some are really bad, and just included for the sake of completeness.

Draw a light weapon? That's useful never. If you can win a grapple check, why not either escape the grapple or pin the opponent? Unless you're really, really good with that light weapon and just didn't have it in your hand for no good reason.

Move the grapple? Break another's pin? Use opponent's weapon? I've never seen anybody do any of those. Plus, they all suffer from the same problem that you have to succeed on a grapple check to do any of them, and if you can succeed on a grapple check, there better options.

So it has all those options, and still isn't complete enough. Didn't we just hear in that thread about Bugbear Stranglers that people wanted to be able to use the opponent as a living shield? There's no option for a throw or a body slam or other fairly common wrestling moves.

Plus, on top of all that, as about a million people have mentioned, there's the additional problem that the monsters always win. So it turns a bunch of big monsters into grapplers, since it's so good. Bears? Grapple. T-Rexes? Grapple. Dragons with the Snatch feat? Grapple. Which then ends up taking any interesting features of the monster away. They're just another big thing grappling you.

It's just too much of a hassle for little payoff.

 

[Mark Hope]

I really like the fact that big monsters are such powerful grapplers. But that's not really an edition thing, and likely has more to do with me being a DM with a squid fetish...

 

[Rechan]

DM with a squid fetish...

TMI dude, TMI.

 

[rkanodia]

I really like the fact that big monsters are such powerful grapplers. But that's not really an edition thing, and likely has more to do with me being a DM with a squid fetish...

You can't fool me; you're really Bruce Schneier!

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Let me just say that I've taken years of martial arts and I've still hugged WAY MORE people than I've punched. It shouldn't take three times as many steps, honestly.

1. AOO: Because grabbing someone opens you up to attacks more than sticking your sword two feet into their midsection?

2. Touch attack: I don't think I've ever tried to hug someone and FAILED TO MAKE CONTACT.

3. Grapple checks: The reason this is dumb is that the check is all strength and size. Anyone who's taken a self-defense class knows that the most important aspects in breaking someone's hold are reaction speed and knowing what the hell you're doing.

Grabbing someone should just be an unarmed attack vs. Reflex defense. On their turn, they can make their own unarmed attack vs. your Reflex defense to break the hold. Someone who's being held grants combat advantage against everyone, including whoever's holding them.

The obvious extension of this is that everyone is "proficient" in unarmed fighting, in that they don't grant AOOs or take to-hit penalties when they punch someone. (Heck, every PC race in the game knows how to swing a morningstar at somebody in combat, but only monks know how to throw a punch?)

 

[Doug McCrae]

The worst part is that monsters never fail grapple checks. Attack -> improved grab -> +27 grapple modifier -> PC wishes he was swallowed whole.

I think the designers assumed the monsters always take -20. Grapple becomes much more reasonable (in terms of PC/monster balance) if you do.

 

[Mark Hope]

You can't fool me; you're really Bruce Schneier!

Bruce Schneier must be stopped. He clearly knows too much.

 

[Doug McCrae]

We use grapple quite a bit. It's a killer tactic against non-CoDzilla casters or versus a medium or smaller foe when the PCs have numerical advantage. You definitely don't need Improved Grapple.

Win initiative, grapple - opponent gets no AoO as he's flat-footed.
Opponent has no weapon drawn, quite likely for a caster - doesn't threaten so, again, no AoO.
You have reach, foe doesn't - no AoO because he doesn't threaten.

The rules for monsters are the real problem, you have to read three separate entries in the Monster Manual to understand them - Improved Grab, Rake and Constrict. And it's extremely counter-intuitive and very ugly design that monsters start getting iterative attacks in a grapple when they didn't while using natural weapons.

3e's strength is supposedly that monsters and PCs work the same but in many ways they never did. A lot of the difficulties arise from applying rules seemingly written from the perspective of two wrestling humanoids in the PHB, to large non-humanoid monsters.

 

[Stogoe]

I think the designers assumed the monsters always take -20. Grapple becomes much more reasonable (in terms of PC/monster balance) if you do.

Oh, great. Assume something in monster design that impacts combat immensely and then never tell your primary users.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I must say that CQF is a very effective feat--if you can hit. The last mod I played with my character who has it, she (a halfling) managed to beat an advanced dire tiger and a huge giant frog by using the feat. There's nothing quite like hearing the DM confidently say, "can you beat a grapple check of 49?" and being able to respond, "I got a 64." The unspoken part that is the best: "And, having been beaten in a grapple by a 4' tall, 30lb halfling girl, the monster should just kill itself now to avoid the humiliation of being alive after such a spectacular failure."

Take Close-Quarters Fighting (mostly for melee types) from the Complete Warrior. Basically, you get an AoO when a creature attempts to grapple, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a grapple without an AoO. If you cause damage on your AoO, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial grapple check to see if the creature starts its grapple.

Of course, this leads to weird rules that Celebrim has already mentioned:



"I use my anti-anti!"...