Whats the 2nd most important attribute for a Sorcerer
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Andor of the Blade
First Post
Having played a sorceror from first level, up into epic levels (just finished Bastion of Broken Souls), I have to go with dexterity. Not so much for the reflex saves, but for the advantage in initiative. Going first is very important for a sorceror.
The outcome was essentially decided in the first two rounds in about three quarters of our battles.
The outcome was essentially decided in the first two rounds in about three quarters of our battles.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Andor of the Blade said:
That is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though. If most of the PCs concentrate on offense then it makes sense to boost initiative and hope that at least one or two of the party members put the hurt on the opposition before they can blink.
Depending on layers of defenses to weather the storm can work; it is easier to implement in larger parties.
KnowTheToe
First Post
Andor of the Blade said:
I thought CON as well, but after reading this, I will have to agree. I play a druid and DEX + Improved initiative comes in very handy. I say for me DEX then CON, probably both at 14. A human Int 10 is enough to get the skill points you need for the key skills, just not a lot of diversity.
going first is vital for a evoker whose party doesn't wanna help him out, because if he doesn't get to go first, those fighters and rogues tend to jump into melee, and then aiming that fireball becomes all but impossible. My sorcerer (con 16 one) once had to hit the party rogue with a cone effect, really pissed him off, but i warned him before the round even began that in order for us to win the fight, i had to blow my remaining spell power in mass damge effects to kill the hoards of foes. He stepped in front of me, and felt why spell focus evocation and spell casting prodigy are good feats =). But, after the party realised that i could clear a room of lesser foes without depleting the clerics healing stores, they started deleying until after my nukage had gone off. So in the end, i was glad i chose CON, cause i had more HP than the rogue =)
Grom
Grom
I think something that people are missing in the CON vs. DEX discussion is the percentage of times the difference actually helps and the fact that we are not generally discussing that much of a difference in bonus between the #2 ability score and the #3 ability score.
For my arcane spellcasters, although I might have a 16 CON, I generally attempt to have a 14 DEX if possible. It's not typically 16 CON vs 10 DEX or vice versa.
So, how much does the extra +1 in the 16 vs. 14 (or 14 vs. 12) case help? Well, 5% of the time, but this can be somewhat misleading.
Getting a higher initiative 5% of the time can at most help 5% of the combats. 95% of the combats, it doesn't help. So here, it is a straight 5%. The Improved Initiative argument is not valid since both characters can have the feat, the one with DEX 14 and the one with DEX 16. Again, it is only 5% of the time where it MIGHT even matter (since sometimes, you want to delay an action as opposed to always going first).
But, having a +1 higher AC tends to result in about 15% less damage (situational dependent). Although it is only a 5% increase in AC, at low level, opponents tend to have about a 33% chance to hit on average, hence, it drops this from 33% to 28% or 15% less damage overall. And, as levels get higher, BAB increases every level (for combatant types) whereas AC generally does not, so this 15% starts dropping down towards the minimal 5%.
Similar "not exactly 5%" differences occur for saving throws vs. damage effects. If you have +5 to your roll vs. a DC 15 save for half damage, you will save 55% of the time for half damage and fail 45% of the time for full damage. Hence, you take 72.5% of the damage on average (45 + 1/2 55). Increasing the +5 to +6 results in taking 70% of the damage on average (40 + 1/2 60). The +1 only results in 2.5% less damage on average (for most characters, characters with Evasion change this back to 5%).
In the 10D6 Fireball case, this means that instead of averaging 25.375 points of damage, the character averages 24.5 points of damage. The +1 to Reflex saves only results in an average of 0.875 points less damage.
Hit points, on the other hand, are increased by approximately 40% (CON 10 to 12), 28% (CON 12 to 14), and 22% (CON 14 to 16) respectively. Discussions of a secondary ability score above 16 generally do not make much sense unless your DM is giving out a boatload of points to purchase stats with. Comparing 22% with the 15-% of combat or the 2.5% of damaging spells illustrates that in the long run, having the extra hit points is generally perferable.
So yes, saving vs. the Fireball 5% of the time results in 17.5 less points of damage in one Fireball in 20. But, having 10 extra hit points (10th level character) for those other 19 out of 20 cases where the result is exactly the same is more helpful since it keeps you alive.
For my arcane spellcasters, although I might have a 16 CON, I generally attempt to have a 14 DEX if possible. It's not typically 16 CON vs 10 DEX or vice versa.
So, how much does the extra +1 in the 16 vs. 14 (or 14 vs. 12) case help? Well, 5% of the time, but this can be somewhat misleading.
Getting a higher initiative 5% of the time can at most help 5% of the combats. 95% of the combats, it doesn't help. So here, it is a straight 5%. The Improved Initiative argument is not valid since both characters can have the feat, the one with DEX 14 and the one with DEX 16. Again, it is only 5% of the time where it MIGHT even matter (since sometimes, you want to delay an action as opposed to always going first).
But, having a +1 higher AC tends to result in about 15% less damage (situational dependent). Although it is only a 5% increase in AC, at low level, opponents tend to have about a 33% chance to hit on average, hence, it drops this from 33% to 28% or 15% less damage overall. And, as levels get higher, BAB increases every level (for combatant types) whereas AC generally does not, so this 15% starts dropping down towards the minimal 5%.
Similar "not exactly 5%" differences occur for saving throws vs. damage effects. If you have +5 to your roll vs. a DC 15 save for half damage, you will save 55% of the time for half damage and fail 45% of the time for full damage. Hence, you take 72.5% of the damage on average (45 + 1/2 55). Increasing the +5 to +6 results in taking 70% of the damage on average (40 + 1/2 60). The +1 only results in 2.5% less damage on average (for most characters, characters with Evasion change this back to 5%).
In the 10D6 Fireball case, this means that instead of averaging 25.375 points of damage, the character averages 24.5 points of damage. The +1 to Reflex saves only results in an average of 0.875 points less damage.
Hit points, on the other hand, are increased by approximately 40% (CON 10 to 12), 28% (CON 12 to 14), and 22% (CON 14 to 16) respectively. Discussions of a secondary ability score above 16 generally do not make much sense unless your DM is giving out a boatload of points to purchase stats with. Comparing 22% with the 15-% of combat or the 2.5% of damaging spells illustrates that in the long run, having the extra hit points is generally perferable.
So yes, saving vs. the Fireball 5% of the time results in 17.5 less points of damage in one Fireball in 20. But, having 10 extra hit points (10th level character) for those other 19 out of 20 cases where the result is exactly the same is more helpful since it keeps you alive.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
KarinsDad said:
Good analysis.
It is also true that +5% initiative and +5% chance of making your save is only going to help you maybe ~10% someone has a Fireball with your name on it. I would like to have that ~25% boost in HPs instead and takes my chances.
Furthermore, a lower Con exacerbates your standard liabilities: damaging AoEs and Fort-based spells.
As I said, it is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I maximize Dex and Init I am dead meat if initiative turns against me, and I will concentrate on hitting them hard & fast. If I have a good Con, I am going to count on my teammates to keep me alive for one round, and I am going to concentrate on more team tactics.
It is often true that the Sorceror will have to rely on offense because he cannot count on the well-tuned defense the Wizard might have. So relying on offense may make sense for the Sorceror. It is really a question of spell selection.
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Hammerhead
Explorer
Another thing to consider is the overall effect of the initiative order. Let's say 4 PCs versus 4 monsters. If one PC goes first, then there probably won't be that big of a difference. On the other hand, if everyone goes ahead of the enemy team, then you may be able to cut their firepower down significantly before they get a chance to act. So the value you place on going first should probably depend on the value everyone else places on going first.
However, I generally prefer Con as secondary attribute for many characters, especially spellcasters. Reflex saves are almost always to avoid HP damage. Even if you fail, you can whether the effect with extra HP. On the other hand, Fort saves have nasty poisons, energy drains, and death effects. Go constitution.
However, I generally prefer Con as secondary attribute for many characters, especially spellcasters. Reflex saves are almost always to avoid HP damage. Even if you fail, you can whether the effect with extra HP. On the other hand, Fort saves have nasty poisons, energy drains, and death effects. Go constitution.
constitution
For several reasons is constitution:
1) Hitpoints (doh !!)
2) Concentration check...
3) Fort saving throw (Fort is the most death save, eg disease, poison, death spells)
4) Even with a low reflex save your con is more important, almost all refl based saves give hitpoints dammage.....
Lai
For several reasons is constitution:
1) Hitpoints (doh !!)
2) Concentration check...
3) Fort saving throw (Fort is the most death save, eg disease, poison, death spells)
4) Even with a low reflex save your con is more important, almost all refl based saves give hitpoints dammage.....
Lai
StealthyMark
First Post
Let's recap... Wisdom is the new dump stat for many characters!
