Whats the 2nd most important attribute for a Sorcerer
- Thread starter smetzger
- Start date
Please excuse me for interupting here, but when I started this post I thought I had a salient idea, it might not turn out that way...
Sorcerer's have lots of spells per day but few known spells, so there is the very real possiblity that they will know one of the ability boosting spells (cat's grace, endurance, etc.). Now this changes things somewhat IMHO.
Since the debates seems to be around DEX vs CON, I came up with a few thoughts.
It seemed to me that having the higher score was more important for the attribute that you did not have (or plan to have) the ability boosting spell. The effect is most pronouned when the higher attirute is even and the lower one is one less.
I.E. Dex 16, Con 15.
Well cats's grace will increase DEX 2,3,4,5, resulting in a +1 to your modifier 50% of the time, and +2 50% of the time. But Endurance would have the ability to provie a +3 bonus 25% of the time it is cast. Yeah but 25% of the imte the bonus is only +1, true but Sorcerer's often have spell slot to spare a second casting. If you cast the spell a second time (only doing so if you only got a +1) then after two castigns you should only have 6.25% change of having only a +1 added to yout bonus.
The effect is more pronounced if you can empower (only once) the spell. Empowered ability boosts add, 3,4,6 or 7 to the score. Adding 3,4,6, or 7 to an even score would result in additional bonuses of +1,+2,+3, +3, respectively, for an average increate of +2.25, but adding those same numbers to an odd score increase the bonus by, +2, +2, +3, +4, respectively, an average of +2.75. And if you have the spell slot left to cast a second time, you can improve your chances for that +4 more.
Anyway, I feel like I am rambling... and I must go now... I will think about this more... and post back (even if only to apologize).
g!
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Sorcerer's have lots of spells per day but few known spells, so there is the very real possiblity that they will know one of the ability boosting spells (cat's grace, endurance, etc.). Now this changes things somewhat IMHO.
Since the debates seems to be around DEX vs CON, I came up with a few thoughts.
It seemed to me that having the higher score was more important for the attribute that you did not have (or plan to have) the ability boosting spell. The effect is most pronouned when the higher attirute is even and the lower one is one less.
I.E. Dex 16, Con 15.
Well cats's grace will increase DEX 2,3,4,5, resulting in a +1 to your modifier 50% of the time, and +2 50% of the time. But Endurance would have the ability to provie a +3 bonus 25% of the time it is cast. Yeah but 25% of the imte the bonus is only +1, true but Sorcerer's often have spell slot to spare a second casting. If you cast the spell a second time (only doing so if you only got a +1) then after two castigns you should only have 6.25% change of having only a +1 added to yout bonus.
The effect is more pronounced if you can empower (only once) the spell. Empowered ability boosts add, 3,4,6 or 7 to the score. Adding 3,4,6, or 7 to an even score would result in additional bonuses of +1,+2,+3, +3, respectively, for an average increate of +2.25, but adding those same numbers to an odd score increase the bonus by, +2, +2, +3, +4, respectively, an average of +2.75. And if you have the spell slot left to cast a second time, you can improve your chances for that +4 more.
Anyway, I feel like I am rambling... and I must go now... I will think about this more... and post back (even if only to apologize).
g!
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StealthyMark
First Post
Spell-boosting your Con is asking for trouble. For a wounded PC with an Endurance spell running, Dispel Magic might be a kill spell.
Spell-boosting Dex is safer, IMO.
Spell-boosting Dex is safer, IMO.
StealthyMark said:
I agree 100%. In fact, I am having this exact same discussion right now with one of my players who is creating a wizard.
At high levels, Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic are spells that often get cast, at least in our campaigns since it takes longer to put the defensive spells back up than it does to dispel them.
There is nothing wrong will spell boosting CON, in fact, it is a good tactic if you already have a good CON. But an arcane caster who has a low CON who uses various Endurance spells (normal, Empowered, Extended, etc.) to make up for his lack of hit points is a death just waiting to happen.
The issue with the Sorcerer is that you have to ask yourself whether taking both Endurance and Cat's Grace is feasible for the character. If so, make CON higher. If not, make CON higher and take Endurance instead of Cat's Grace.
hey wait a sec...
I am asking because I do not remember, but if you did have say 40 HP and after endurance you get and "extra" temporary 30 HP.
Then, you get hit with a hemisphere of wicked damage and take 60 HP. You now have 10 HP left.
Finally, Thagor evil wizard of disepelling targets you and you lose the endurance.
Now, the question. Do you die (because you have 60 HP of damage but only 40 real HP), or do you still have 10 HP?
g!
I am asking because I do not remember, but if you did have say 40 HP and after endurance you get and "extra" temporary 30 HP.
Then, you get hit with a hemisphere of wicked damage and take 60 HP. You now have 10 HP left.
Finally, Thagor evil wizard of disepelling targets you and you lose the endurance.
Now, the question. Do you die (because you have 60 HP of damage but only 40 real HP), or do you still have 10 HP?
g!
apsuman said:
You die.
Hit points acquired by an Endurance spell are due to the fact that your CON is higher, they are not temporary hit points (as per the Aid spell for example).
Any damage you have taken applies to your current total of real hit points, not from any acquired from the Endurance spell first (like it would with temporary hit points).
That's why Wyverns can be so nasty. A Wyvern does 15 points of damage to a 5th level Fighter with 50 hit points and he does not seem that damaged. But, suddenly, his CON drops to 4 or something and his real hit points drop to 11 (the lowest a 5th level Fighter can have at CON 4). The rules on this are a little ambiguous. The hit points for each level acquired should be lowered separately (minimum 1), but nobody really keeps track of how many hits were acquired at each level. So, typically, the best you can do is to lower the real hit points by X * level where X is approximately CON lowered / 2.
KarinsDad said:
Thanks, KD. I'd done the math for the Con bonus above, but I didn't think about doing such an exacting analysis ...
The choice is more interesting for a Barbarian, whose d12 hit die makes the Con bonus a smaller percentage of total hit points. Although, since he will probably want to stay in medium armor ... for a front-line character who soaks lots of attacks, being on the low-end of AC for a primary fighter decreases the effect of the Dex bonus as well. (The proof of this is left as an exercise for the reader.
) But for a wizard or sorcerer, there's just no Con-test.I hadn't even thought about Con-centration, either. How many useful Dex-based skills are on the Sorcerer's class list?
Christian said:
Thanks.
Christian said:
The choice is more interesting for a Barbarian, whose d12 hit die makes the Con bonus a smaller percentage of total hit points. Although, since he will probably want to stay in medium armor ... for a front-line character who soaks lots of attacks, being on the low-end of AC for a primary fighter decreases the effect of the Dex bonus as well. (The proof of this is left as an exercise for the reader.
Actually, I think the Barbarian example is very interesting.
As you state, being on the low-end of AC decreases the effect of the DEX bonus.
Compare him to a Fighter with AC 4 higher. The Barbarian might take 35% hits, the Fighter takes 15% hits. So, +1 AC for the Barbarian drops his chance to be hit from 35% to 30% or a 14% drop in average damage. Adding +1 AC to the Fighter drops his chance to be hit from 15% to 10%, a 33% drop in average damage.
Then, compare the increase in hit points due to CON for the Barbarian. Hit points are increased by approximately 15% (CON 10 to 12), 13% (CON 12 to 14), and 12% (CON 14 to 16) respectively.
It appears that taking 14% less damage due to AC might, on the surface, be better than having 12% or 13% more hit points.
But, this can be a little misleading.
This is only in the case where the Barbarian takes his most of his hit points in damage within a combat. Let’s take examples of him taking 20, 40, 60, and 80 points of damage in a single combat and let’s say that he is 10th level with a CON of 12 and has average hit points of 80. The following chart shows how many hit points he has left after combat (in each of these 4 cases):
20 60
40 40
60 20
80 0
If you give him +2 to DEX or +1 more AC, he has the following hit points remaining (due to taking 14% less damage due to the increased AC):
20 63 (he only takes 17 points of damage on average since his +1 AC protects him 14% more)
40 46
60 28
80 11
Now instead, say that you gave him a 14 CON as opposed to the +1 increase in AC. Now, his hit points look like this in the four cases (since he has 10 more hit points or 90 total hit points):
20 70
40 50
60 30
80 10
So, in all of these cases except the last one, he has more hit points remaining after the combat. Basically, the extra CON effectively protects him more than the extra DEX whenever he is in a combat that does light or moderate damage to him. It is only in the extremely heavy combat situations where the AC might protect him more (it might not, depending on his opponents chance to hit since as levels increase, BAB increases more than AC).
The bottom line is that the extra CON is typically better for the higher hit point characters like Fighters and Barbarians as well as for Wizards and Sorcerers. It just is not as helpful for the high hit point characters, nor as noticeable that this is the case without doing the math.
One caveat on this. Special abilities and/or feats of opponents can quickly change the numbers here. For example, if your opponent has a Keen Flame Burst weapon (or is a Dragon or Giant doing 20 points of damage with a single melee attack), the extra 10 hit points might not protect you as much as the increase in AC since dropping 10% of the average damage of a mega-damage weapon can often be greater than the extra hit point per level if your opponent gets to attack you multiple times with the attack. But, I have found in practice that even dumb Fighters will attempt to avoid combat or decrease the number of opponents attacks when their opponents have mega-powerful attacks. So although mathematically, a mere 5 20 point attacks by an opponent will eat up the extra 10 hit points that CON would have supplied (due to having 1 AC less for a 10th level character), in practice most PCs do not just rush up and give their opponents those types of opportunities if they can avoid it. You get smacked hard once by a mega-attack, you tend to shout for the party spell casters to protect/heal you. IME.
TroyXavier
First Post
I voted for dexterity, but constitution is a close runnerup, then intelligence.
