D&D (2024) What's the best way to build a bladelock now?

[Nightfly]

I'm thinking about a melee warlock for an upcoming campaign, but I'm struggling with all the different ways to build it, none of which seem ideal. The 2024 version might be just as good or even better than the 2014 version, but it's certainly not as simple. There are a lot of choices to make.

* Is it feasible to do it without a dip into a martial class? Without that dip (or multiple feats) you're limited to light armor, no shield, no weapon mastery, and no proficiency in Con saves. That's pretty brutal. If you start off fighter for just one level, you get all that and more. For roleplaying reasons, I'd rather not multiclass and especially rather not start a different class, but it feels really weak defensively without that one-level detour.

* Can you afford to dump Strength? Without a 13 in Str, you can't wield heavy weapons and are limited in multiclassing. But getting that 13 Str spreads your stats awfully thin.

* Is it crazy to think about dumping Charisma? You could use Str or Dex as your main stat and leave Cha fairly low, while focusing on spells that don't depend on Cha, like Armor of Agathys and Misty Step, and otherwise burn your spell slots otherwise on Eldritch Smite. That could work, but then why not just play an Eldritch Knight or whatever? It arguably defeats the point of playing a Warlock.

I'm kind of overwhelmed by all the different directions I could go. Anyone have any insight?

 

[Kurotowa]

Okay, so disclaimer. TTRPGs move at a slow pace. Most groups only meet once a week at most, and very often less than that. So we don't have a lot of actual play reports of people trying out the various permutations yet. This is still the early days of Revised 5e. That means most of what follows is abstract theorycraft, and could very well be different than what community consensus emerges in two or three years. And with that out of the way...

Bladelocks are not a martial class. They're a caster class that can build around weapon use. But if you want to play one as if they were a martial class, a lot of people are focusing on the idea of a Fiend Bladelock with a starting single level in Fighter. This gets you Heavy armor, Weapon Mastery, and a Fighting Style. Then you stand on the front line hitting people and getting Temp HP from Dark One's Blessing, maybe layered with Armor of Agathys, and pretend you're an especially edgy Paladin.

If you don't want to do that you have to get creative, and that's what's still untested and being explored. Maybe you can do an Archfey Bladelock who does a lot of Rogue style hit-and-run using teleports. Getting the Boots of the Winding Path from the recent Artificer UA would help with that. There have been various ideas about a Celestial Warlock who stacks Agonizing Blast and Radiant Soul on a compatible weapon cantrip. But the math isn't great on True Strike, and people are waiting to see if Green-Flame Blade appears along side Bladesinger in the Forgotten Realms book this Fall.

Honestly though, right now no one's quite sure what role Bladelocks are supposed to fill. Eldritch Knight Fighters and Arcane Trickster Rogues are the mostly martials with a little spellcasting, Valor Bards and Bladesinger Wizards are the mostly casters with a little weapon use, and Paladins and Rangers and Artificers are the half-casters who sit in between. So what's the Bladelock good at and what's their gameplan? It's hard to say. They don't have the AC or HP to act as martials, but they commit way more resources to weapon use than a full caster does. Maybe it's a flawed design, and maybe it just takes a shift in perspective. We don't know yet.

 

[FrogReaver]

Random thoughts.

My ideal 2024 Warlock is just straight EB + Control/Summon spells. At level 4 take Spell Sniper so I can fire it into melee.

An early game Melee Warlock with Armor of Agathys and the False life at will invocation will be a beast. 12 Temp hp that you can replenish at any time that deals 5 damage anytime you are hit and that can potentially last an hour (so multiple encounters per 1 spell slot possibility) and with that much temp hp generation it isn't like you'll die early.

I don't think I'd go for Strength. Either Dex or Charisma. Concentration Spells in melee will be a little rough, though you can take the advantage on concentration invocation as well. So if I really was leaning melee i'd go for 17 dex + 16 cha start. Maybe get Defensive Duelist feat at level 4. Use False Life + Armor of Agathys as much as possible. You still have the Cha to be effective with control spells when you have strong opportunities, just not quite as maximized for them.

At level 5 that's something like 19 effective AC when Defensive Duelist is up. 15 Temp hp from Armor of Agathys and the ability to replenish that to 12 anytime it's nearly depleted.

As long as the DM doesn't actively avoid targeting you then I think you'll contribute very well.

 

[FrogReaver]

I guess I should add, the single level fighter dip i think is ideal for a melee warlock, but you can definitely delay it till after level 5. Fiendish Vigor and Armor of Agathys should be plenty to carry you through early levels.

 

[mellored]

Yes, you can make a feasible no armored bladelock. Not going to be as tough as a fighter, but being a secondary melee works.

Mainly, don't take combat concentration spells. Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, and Miror Image for instance. Suggestion is still quite good out of combat.

You can easily dump Str, yes. You could use Dex (more AC) or Str (more damage) as well. Any will work. Though IMO, Cha is best for out of combat stuff and lets you cast other spells, and some subclasses features.

As for why not an Eldritch Knight, it depends on how much of a caster you want to be. Eldritch Knight are still a fighter just with a side of spells. Bladelock is probably closest to 50/50. I'll also toss out the Valor Bard if you want even more spells.

Fiend or Archfey are probably the best 2 for melee. Fiend for general toughness and Archfey for mobility.

 

[Zardnaar]

Our ones a blend 9f okd and new. Uses 2014 Gith for medium armor. We are ignoring the 13 strength requirement as character was built using 2014 rules initially.

Without a magic weapon I font think I woukd bother tbf. Or just multiclass.

Use shillagh is another option.

 

[NotAYakk]

True Strike cantrip

Pact of the Blade
Agonizing Blast

At level 4 this gives you an attack that does [W]+Cha*2 damage, at level 5 it would do [W]+Cha*2+1d6.

Swapping Agonizing Blast for Thirsting Blade you do 2[W]+Cha*2 over 2 attacks at level 5.

Just casting Eldritch Blast with AB you'd do 2d10+Cha*2 at level 5 at range over 2 attacks.

The "trick" for melee warlocks in 5e was that you could combo elven accuracy with a great weapon mastery, rolling 3d20 makes -5 matter a lot less. Or crit-fishing with smites, especially if you could get a 19-20 crit range (27% crit chance). But elven accuracy is now a legacy feat...

If we allow that then

Vengence Paladin 6 / Warlock 5
gets cha-to-attack on weapons, a 27% crit chance, and on a crit can double-smite (paladin and warlock smites) for +16d8 (72) damage once per long rest. Using heavy armor and weapons and GWM and Hex, its standard attack rountine is 3d6+8 (18.5) x2 (37). If it starts with 14 str, GWM bumps it to 15 and allows it to wear plate armor.

+4 cha +4 prof. Target AC is 16ish, so hits on an 8+ crits on an 19+. 3x advantage, so 4% miss 27% crit 69% (nice) hit rate.

Over 2 attacks, 47% chance at least 1 crits (useful for bonus action attacks and 1/turn smites).

Without hex, 2d6+8 does 15*.69 + 22*.27 = 16.3 damage per swing.
With hex, 3d6+8 does 18.5*.69 + 29*.27 = 20.6 damage per swing.

So hex adds +8.6 DPR

A bonus swing without hex is worth 16.3*.47 = 7.7 damage per round
A bonus swing with hex is worth 20.6*.47 = 9.7 damage per round

Conclusion: Hex is better than saving the bonus action for an extra swing.

First round:
Vengence, 2x attacks. 32.6 damage and 47% chance at least one crit goes off. No bonus action.
Second round:
Hex, 2x attacks for 41.2 damage. 72% chance at least 1 crit.
Third round:
2x attacks + extra swing on crit for 50.9 damage. 85% chance of at least 1 crit.

Over 3 rounds, 185.9 damage on average, or ~62 DPR. It is likely to be able to drop a few more smites in there using paladin spell slots and the 3rd warlock spell slot; suppose a high chance of one more crit for another 12d8 damage (two 2nd level slots)? That ups the DPR to 80, using up daily resources.

A pure Warlock using EB with Hex is doing 30.8 DPR at range.
A level 12 pure GWM Hex warlock does 3d6+9 (19.5) per swing (70% to hit, 5% crit) for 42.5 DPR (44.6 with bonus action) before smites. Doesn't bother waiting for crits, just drops two smites for 6d8 each, for a total of ~52 DPR.

A pure GWM Paladin Vengence who is smiting on crits and using HM does 3d6+1d8+9 (24) per swing at +9 to hit.

With elven accuracy (!) it has a 98% hit 14% crit rate, so 25.6 damage per swing and 51.2 damage per round.

Drops a smite on the 2nd attack, or 1st if it crits, gives us a 99% smite and 26% smite crit rate at 4d8 for 22.5 damage per round.

Total DPR is 73.7 using all 3 3rd level slots, and 51.2 using only a 1st level slot (plus short rest resources).

Oops; I gave this guy a free hunter's mark. That added 7.8 DPR. And he can't smite round 1 (neither can the warlock divine smite round 1 or 2). So that drops everyone's numbers.

Still, I'm getting nothing extremely out of band with this.

 

[Kurotowa]

True Strike cantrip

Pact of the Blade
Agonizing Blast

At level 4 this gives you an attack that does [W]+Cha*2 damage, at level 5 it would do [W]+Cha*2+1d6.

I need to contest this, for the record. I disagree that True Strike counts as dealing damage before it adds the 1d6 at 5th level. Until that point it's a spell that lets you make a modified weapon attack, and the spell itself isn't dealing any damage.

But I admit I'm often on the more conservative side when it comes to reading rules interactions like this.

 

[jgsugden]

I wonder how much of the Enworld forum traffic is being lost to people asking AI these types of questions?

You can absolutely go without the dip. If you take Pact of the Blade you get to be proficient with any weapon you want - so your ability to hit will be good. You will likely want that strength of 13, but you can live without the mastery, con save and armor proficiencies.

Why would you? Earlier access to multi-attack and earlier access to higher level spells. Those can be huge. If you are going with this style, you'll likely want to avoid tanky style combat where you exchange blows. Instead, you'll want to come in, finish a foe off and then maneuver to avoid attacks while someone else takes the hits. Your success in doing so is mostly up to how much the DM allows you to control the combat scenario. Character levels 3, 5, 7 and 9 hurt a bit when you do not get those higher level spells (and multi-attack) while mono class characters get these perks.

I think WotC should have given the Hexblade weapon mastery with their weapon from Pact of the Blade. It seems like a miss to have a weapon focused PC and not allow them to have that perk when so many other classes get it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I can see both option as viable.

Fighter dip, high str, heavy armor, weapon masteries. Possibly even two weapon fighting and using hex. Should feel a bit like a ranger. At level 4, yoi take dual weapon fighting and also have 3 attacks most of the time. At level 8, taking defensive duellist will give you +4 AC as a reaction.

You will never notice, that you got extra attack a level late, as your damage output is very high for most of the levels most people play.
I'd take fiend warlock for temp hp.

A different route is just accept not having access to all those fighter abilities. Cast armor of agathys, live with lower AC. You want to be hit a bit. Be a fiend warlock to replenish temp hp.

Str 13 for heavy weaponry is nice. You can live with a 13 easily. But you could also have it your main stat. Really depends on what feats you are looking at. More weapon damage will make str look good. Having better saving throws for spells and taking warcaster to cast spells as opportunity attacks is also nice.

So to sum it up: there is really no wrong here. The hexblade is fine.