What's the big deal about gnomes not being in the PHB? **Edited for adversarial tone*

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As I've said before, although the Lord of the Rings movies are very popular indeed, the Sindar and Noldor are more than likely not what most people think of when they hear the word "elf." Thus, they are not "iconic." The iconic elf, in my opinion, is Santa's elf, followed closely by the Keebler dudes.

I think we're talking "fantasy iconic" here. I've never seen anyone play a Keebler elf. (Anyone who did would be treated as if they're playing a kender, gnome or other annoying comical race.)

 

[Aeolius]

I've never seen anyone play a Keebler elf.

Could be worse:

 

[jdrakeh]

I understand why some people don't like the loss though, I've not seen anybody play a gnome in my (admittedly limited) fifteen years of playing D&D across all of its editions with hundreds of people. I am thus inclined to believe that the people who are especially vocal about the loss of the Gnome as a PHB race are in the minority or part of the crowd that rallies against change of any kind, in any area of their life (and possibly both).

[Edit: I take that back. I recall one gnome PC from my first 3.0 D&D game, though the character was played largely as comic relief.]

 

[Wolfspider]

I think we're talking "fantasy iconic" here. I've never seen anyone play a Keebler elf. (Anyone who did would be treated as if they're playing a kender, gnome or other annoying comical race.)

Well, D&D 4e is supposed to be trying to appeal to people outside of the typical fantasy-loving, gaming population.

 

[Rechan]

Well, D&D 4e is supposed to be trying to appeal to people outside of the typical fantasy-loving, gaming population.

I thought it was trying to appeal to the WoW and LotR movie generation?

 

[HeinorNY]

Well, D&D 4e is supposed to be trying to appeal to people outside of the typical fantasy-loving, gaming population.

If that was true, taking the gnomes out of the PHB would be a nice start, IMO.

 

[AllisterH]

It wasn't 3.x that caused a decrease in the appeal of gnomes. In fact, I'd argue that 3.x actually increased their appeal.

I think people have forgotten what a pre 3.x gnome actually looked like. That big shnauser that appeared on many 1E/2E gnomes was as appealing to the general D&D gamer as "Bearded female dwarves" were to female D&D gamers.

Especially since IIRC, gnomes were supposed to brag about the size of their nose.

 

[jdrakeh]

I think people have forgotten what a pre 3.x gnome actually looked like. That big shnauser that appeared on many 1E/2E gnomes was as appealing to the general D&D gamer as "Bearded female dwarves" were to female D&D gamers.

You make a good point. The older AD&D gnomes had noses roughly 1/3 the size of their head. The 3x gnome was a huge improvement, IMHO, thiough it didn't seem to help out the popularity of the gnome as a PC race much (I think that it was just as unpopular in 3x as it had been in AD&D).

 

[AllisterH]

You make a good point. The older AD&D gnomes had noses roughly 1/3 the size of their head. The 3x gnome was a huge improvement, IMHO, thiough it didn't seem to help out the popularity of the gnome as a PC race much (I think that it was just as unpopular in 3x as it had been in AD&D).

Then of course there was the main depiction of gnomes in AD&D, a.k.a the Tinker Gnome. Really, for many people, a race that had a nose that do Cyrano de Bergerac proud and were known as the "absent-mined professor" is NOT going to be a popular choice.

I stand by my belief that 3.x probably increased the number of gnome players.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

More people played gnomes pre-3.X than post.

Done market research, have you?

Actually, yes: in 2003-4, I did a few polls for a bit of academic credit (for my MBA), albeit with small (50 gamers) samples and only a limited sampling area (it was done in person in the D/FW area, not online) .

What I found was a drop in players playing various races in 3.X- most people who had played 3 or fewer PHB races heavily favored Humans and Elves, with Dwarves being the distant 3rd.

In earlier editions, while humans and elves still predominated, the 3rd race was fairly evenly distributed- well within the sampling error. IOW, Gnomes fared no worse than Dwarves, Half-Elves, Halflings or Half-Orcs.

For those who were allowed to play outside the PHB (in each edition), Humans & Elves still predominated, and no other PHB race got significantly better numbers than races from other sources.

So... you're saying that gnomes aren't distinct, since they're interchangeable with elves and dwarves from old mythology and folklore? What makes them suitable for inclusion over anyone else if every single niche they filled in other sources is already filled by a stronger contender for that position?

What I'm saying is that gnomes, dwarves and elves (and goblins, pixies, etc.) as a whole are indistinct in legend and lore, and there are enough roles in the legends that they didn't all have to be allocated to elves & dwarves in the games.

The only reason "stronger contenders" may exist in other races is that the designers made it so. They could just as easily designed gnomes to fill this niche or that.

Germanic folklore's Rübezahl is the Lord of the Underworld- he was sometimes referred to as a mountain gnome. According to some traditions, the gnome king is called Gob.

Which are just like dwarves, so unless you're saying the gnome should kill the dwarf and take his stuff, the gnome loses this fight.

Not even close.

The legends of Rübezahl vary- he is a capricious giant/gnome/mountain spirit; he is the fantastic Lord of Weather of the mountains and is similar to the Wild Hunt, in others, he is similar to Wotan. With good people he is friendly, he teaches medicine and gives presents. If someone derides him, however, his revenge is severe. He sometimes plays the role of a trickster in folk talkes. In other words, he is kind of like a mortal version of Loki.

This would lend it self to a more nature minded take on the Gnome- possibly with favored class Druid or some such.

Definitely not a Dwarf. Probably Fey.

Heck- making them Fey, with all of the attendant strengths and weaknesses would be a good start to improving them, and would definitley distinguish them from Dwarves and Elves (who, by legend, should also have been fey).

Quote:

The Nome King is the principle BBEG in Frank Baum's Oz series.

And acts nothing like gnomes depicted in other sources, except those sources that make gnomes nearly identical to D&D dwarves... so again, you have the issue of dwarves being a stronger contender for that depiction.

I'd disagree with that- he's very much like gnomes you'd find in the legends and folklore of Europe, such as were collected in Grimm's Fairy Tales. He also has tendencies linked to the darker fairytales in which fey trick and keep humans as pets or slaves.

Hardly the D&D dwarf or gnome.

And in modern fiction, The Shanarra books feature Gnomes as one of the principle evil races, similar to D&D Goblins.

Meaning... what?

Meaning at least one author out there has taken the gnomes seriously enough to give them a solid anti-heroic role in his novels- something claimed to be lacking.
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