What's the big deal with "feat taxes?"

[Tequila Sunrise]

While I can totally see why some folk don't like the so called "feat tax feats". I would just like to say that design wise I like the fact that I can pick those feats put them on my sheet and forget them. IMHO there are way too many feats that are too situational and end up forgotten. I have enough things to remember when running my character without having to remember that if I'm flanked and bloodied on a Saturday I get an extra +2 to my defenses. Give me feats like expertise that I can record and forget any day, over that narrowly situational stuff.

I can sympathize with this, even if it doesn't justify the presence of feat taxes. I'm a big fan of feats like focus, toughness, proficiencies, skill training, etc.

I dont belive it will

Ironically, you're doing an excellent job of proving snoweel right.

Judging by your sig and your previous comments, you've already decided that going outside of RAW in any way is a dark scary dangerous adventure. You've decided that the only way to control your power gamers is to not give an inch: not to them, and not to the possibility that free feats might actually make your life easier. Even in the face of testimony from those who have actually done so.

I've played in games like yours, and in games with free feat taxes. (Both had a mix of power gamers and casual players.) And my experience matches C4's -- everyone's happier when everyone has all of their half-level bonus.

starting next month our local power gamer is runningn his own game once a month... he is giving 1 expertise feat (including master at arms or fey charm ext) for free at 1st level, and a sexond at 5th, then at 8th and 16th you get a free def feat (he has a list of armor or nad feats) and at 11th you get a bonus any feat, and if we get to 21 we get a bonus any feat as well... Also all at wills do epic damage at 1st level, and we are useing themes and starting at level 3.

Tonight we are going to make characters...and since he also 6 hombrew themse we will not have the character builder at all... It will be intresting. I think that he has gone overboard....

Yes, I think he's going overboard too. He's sort of fixing the math, but messing with other stuff that doesn't need fixing too. It might turn out to be a great campaign, but more likely it won't. Which is a shame, because then this sub-stellar campaign will fuel your own fears that "free stuff is baaad!"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Judging by your sig and your previous comments, you've already decided that going outside of RAW in any way is a dark scary dangerous adventure. You've decided that the only way to control your power gamers is to not give an inch: not to them, and not to the possibility that free feats might actually make your life easier. Even in the face of testimony from those who have actually done so.

ok first I am very careful...much more then my 2e days when I would make stuff up all the time. Now I am careful, but I still hombrew... I have in my current game homebrew firearms, homebrew themes (more like darksun)

Yes, I think he's going overboard too. He's sort of fixing the math, but messing with other stuff that doesn't need fixing too. It might turn out to be a great campaign, but more likely it won't. Which is a shame, because then this sub-stellar campaign will fuel your own fears that "free stuff is baaad!"

to be honnest I already have little faith in his ability, or free feats...but I am giving both a chance...and it will show how it works...

 

[Herschel]

To me, it's not really fun to feel like I have to take these bland, boring feats that are pretty much superior to all others, yet dull and uninteresting. It's a mechanically poor choice to not take an expertise feat. Nothing else really compares.

My groups solution is simple -- everyone gets a "feat tax refund." This includes:

One expertise feat of their choice (including Master At Arms, if they wish)
Improved Defenses
Melee Training in their highest stat (in our game, this feat covers ranged attacks also)

Everyone's pretty happy with it.

The issue is you feel you have to take them, not that they exist, because you don't need to take them. But hey, giving out three free feats would make me happy too, except your system kind of screws strength classes because they only get two and you change the dynamics of feat allocation.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

To me, it's not really fun to feel like I have to take these bland, boring feats

I understand you feel that way, but I hope you understand not everyone agrees with you...

My groups solution is simple -- everyone gets a "feat tax refund." This includes:

One expertise feat of their choice (including Master At Arms, if they wish)
Improved Defenses
Melee Training in their highest stat (in our game, this feat covers ranged attacks also)

Everyone's pretty happy with it.

ok, but if I design my human warlord who uses str for melee and ranged attacks already, and I have no intrest in any expertise or imp def feats...

and you design an avenger with a Deva with no str or dex to speak of, and are looking for an expertise feat, the def feat, and you want a sup weapon...

well I get a +1 to hit, and a +1 to my nads... you get to take the same (witch remember you wanted and would pay a feat for I would not) and you get to take your sup weapo at 1st level and use your 20 wis for all basic attacks...

notice I did not get what I wanted you did... can I then exchange those free feats for the one that lets me add my int mod to damage with action points, lend might, multi class into swordmage instead?

 

[Akaiku]

notice I did not get what I wanted you did... can I then exchange those free feats for the one that lets me add my int mod to damage with action points, lend might, multi class into swordmage instead?

No.

See, the thing is that they are not giving free feats, they are giving free boring uninteresting universal numbers (the add on to some of the expertise notwithstanding). In addition, you are not loosing out on anything. You are getting the exact same stuff that is exactly as applicable to your build as anyone else's.

 

[drothgery]

ok, but if I design my human warlord who uses str for melee and ranged attacks already, and I have no intrest in any expertise or imp def feats...

... well, then the rest of the party isn't punished by you being bad at math (unless you're playing a lazy warlord or similar oddball build that either doesn't make attacks or doesn't care about hitting).

 

[Ryujin]

I understand you feel that way, but I hope you understand not everyone agrees with you...

ok, but if I design my human warlord who uses str for melee and ranged attacks already, and I have no intrest in any expertise or imp def feats...

and you design an avenger with a Deva with no str or dex to speak of, and are looking for an expertise feat, the def feat, and you want a sup weapon...

well I get a +1 to hit, and a +1 to my nads... you get to take the same (witch remember you wanted and would pay a feat for I would not) and you get to take your sup weapo at 1st level and use your 20 wis for all basic attacks...

notice I did not get what I wanted you did... can I then exchange those free feats for the one that lets me add my int mod to damage with action points, lend might, multi class into swordmage instead?

Sure, except that in my experience everyone takes Expertise anyway, if it isn't houseruled. Putting those feats into the 'free' pile means that those feat slots are available for the Warlock to take Melee Training - CHA, the Avenger gets a skill or two (ours took Thievery), and the Fighter can multi-class to Cleric, to fill out his "Sword of Kord" character concept.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

... well, then the rest of the party isn't punished by you being bad at math (unless you're playing a lazy warlord or similar oddball build that either doesn't make attacks or doesn't care about hitting).

this is absolute unjustified sarcasm... 5% less chance to hit won´t break anything...

 

[Akaiku]

this is absolute unjustified sarcasm... 5% less chance to hit won´t break anything...

5% aboslute. If you are hitting 50% of the time, 5% more is 10% of what you have.

Also, at epic its 15% absolute. Same 50% normally, it's 30% more hit.

Assume you 'need' it to hit half the time in epic, you have a base 35%. That's 42.8ish percent of you base that you get added for a feat. Large difference.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, I actually know how to calculate chances... lets not argue about that...

I replied to that post assuming he was speaking of the level 1 warlord... at this level, 5% lesser chances to hit or effeciently decreasing your damage by 10% or so does not break anything.

My stance about epic level and expertise can be read in previous posts... short: if you want to be a fighting character, you should get some extra training in your weapons, and I wished, there were combat and noncombat feat slots.