What's the big deal with "feat taxes?"

Again, BS. Expertise still functions with the other bonuses, duh, but the other bonuses mean expertise isn't needed, which many claim it is.

Well Combat Advantage isn't really much more nor less accessible at level 18, than it is at level 1.

Since my statement is BS, then surely you can give me a nice, long list of Leader at-wills, that give scaling combat bonuses. They would be available at level one anyway...... and wouldn't be omnipresent bonuses like
Expertise...... and they would be less available with levels, due to the same loss of hit potential without having Expertise..... but it would at least be a start.
 

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Those that gave scaling bonuses at-will or for the whole encounter were errated to give only static bonuses.
Scaling bonuses are only accessible for a "short" time in an encounter/per day...

So even though expertise were a math fix, scaling leader bonuses once were able to close the gap for a whole encounter, with the only exception, that they often could not provide the bonus themselves and thus could not reliably apply them, or even worse, you couldplay with a leader that does not have access to such bonuses...

This is why I, in different threads suggested to make leader bonuses "permanent power bonuses"...

So you can play leaderless or not, and if you have a terriffic leader that can grant great bonuses, you can play expertiseless...
 


Again, BS. Expertise still functions with the other bonuses, duh, but the other bonuses mean expertise isn't needed, which many claim it is.

From my experience, that may be true for Defenders and Strikers. But for high initiative Controllers and especially your Leaders, who you're counting on to provide some of those "other bonuses"? The benefits of Expertise for those folks are too significant to ignore.
 

In other words leaders do not provide the missing bonuses.
But they do (assuming for the moment the bonuses are truly 'missing'). Even if just encounter and daily powers grant the scaling bonuses, there's more than enough of them to last through the number of encounters you're likely to have in a given day.

Even judging from what I've seen in our first level party we won't ever have trouble hitting monsters in the epic tier: Our two leaders grant at-will combat advantage, and a +2 power bonus to attack rolls, respectively. So, we're already well ahead of the game.

We also already have several ways of dealing auto-damage making attack rolls irrelevant.

Likewise defenses: Marked enemies get a -2 to hit everyone but the one who marked them and most pcs already have ways to become invisible (though all except one can only do it once per encounter) for an additional -5 to hit.

And just as with attack rolls, defenses aren't everything: If you have resistance, lots of temporary hit points, fast healing, damage reduction, etc. the impact of being hit is greatly reduced.

Now, granted we have a large party (up to nine players) but even in a standard party of five you'll have enough dailys to get you through the (adventuring) day, assuming you're using them sparingly (or evenly) rather than expending all of them in your first encounter.

Currently we're breezing through encounters. All that is likely to happen in the higher levels is that things will become slightly more challenging which might actually be a good thing. If we were still breezing through encounters in the epic tier, something would be wrong. Imho, things _should_ become more difficult.
 

Well Combat Advantage isn't really much more nor less accessible at level 18, than it is at level 1.

Now you're just being silly. With the amount of powers characters have at 18... many of them in a full party will include ones that grant CA automatically, or grant additional squares of shifting/teleportation to get into flank, or create zones of concealment within which to hide and thus grant CA etc. So getting it is much easier at 18 than 1.

But whatever, dude. You can't get past the idea that you have to have a certain attack bonus at a certain level in order to be successful and that Expertise is the only way to do it, and thus you lose a feat slot. So be it.
 

Possible bonuses, frequently to a single character and conditional upon a hit, vs. omnipresent bonuses, to all characters. Not in the same ballpark.

Those powers are generally needed, to counter additional abilities used by the opposition.
 

Now you're just being silly. With the amount of powers characters have at 18... many of them in a full party will include ones that grant CA automatically, or grant additional squares of shifting/teleportation to get into flank, or create zones of concealment within which to hide and thus grant CA etc. So getting it is much easier at 18 than 1.

That's not my experience. It's slightly easier - but not as much as you might think. It's a nice tactical thing, but it's not that hard at first level, and simultaneously not that much easier later on. It's certainly only a small fraction of a +1 bonus, so it doesn't really significantly impact the expertise question. Of course it's also party dependent; if you really do have powers in play that grant party-wide mass CA every encounter, this would matter.
 

It's probably worth reiterating that it doesn't matter if Expertise is "necessary" or not. It exists. If you have a +2 - +3 attack bonus available for a feat, especially if it also gives invaluable things like staff expertise, then people will take it.

So, either the feats are a math fix _or_ they're overpowered, but there's no real middle ground in which the system works hunky dory whether you choose to take them or not. They're a blemish of _some sort_, whether it's systemic or just confined to them.

But they do (assuming for the moment the bonuses are truly 'missing'). Even if just encounter and daily powers grant the scaling bonuses, there's more than enough of them to last through the number of encounters you're likely to have in a given day.

Even judging from what I've seen in our first level party we won't ever have trouble hitting monsters in the epic tier: Our two leaders grant at-will combat advantage, and a +2 power bonus to attack rolls, respectively. So, we're already well ahead of the game.

In my general experience (several hundred sessions ranging from 1st - 23rd level), these types of bonuses are actually most common at low level - you do less fights per day (2-3 in heroic, 5-7 in epic, frex), more of the basic at-will powers give bonuses to attack, which people largely stop using, etc. As you get higher level, people tend to do harder control powers or attack granting instead, in my experience, such that you still see bonuses, but they actually go far down in quantity and regularity. Combat advantage comes from powers (daze + stun + prone) much more commonly, but on the other hand flanking (and PCs actually standing near each other in general) is less common. At least among those who want to survive all of the blasts and bursts coming their way :)

Likewise defenses: Marked enemies get a -2 to hit everyone but the one who marked them and most pcs already have ways to become invisible (though all except one can only do it once per encounter) for an additional -5 to hit.

Depends on the party - usually the way it works if you actually have some near unhittable people, and some near autohittable people. Like, you might have a 22nd barbarian with Will 27 (monsters are attacking at +25) and a Will 43 Chaladin (w/ +2 to all defenses until he takes damage), both in the same party.

Marks also trigger less often as bursts become more common, or if they do, it's for situations like the above barbarian vs. paladin choice.

Difficulty and chance to hit don't have to have anything to do with each other.

Personally, if attack bonus were decoupled entirely from everything but level and maybe a basic class accuracy, I'd be fine with it. That way you could stop worrying about ability score bumps from epic destinies and races, certain feats, certain magic items, and all the rest.
 

Ok, so here is my quastion... how do you get rid of 'feat taxes' without upsetting a diffrent group of players and DMs (Like myself who see way too many over powered builds who already hit all the time and have atleast 3 good defences...and dont want to see those characters get MORE feats)?

Example: I am runing agame and player A has all the power gameing stuff, and player B has none... so A has a supr weap, expertise, paragon def, the 3 other def uppers, tougness...ect and B has skill training and skill power and astral fire, and alertness... so then WotC erratas +1 to hit and def at 5, 15, and 25...and takes expertise and paragon def, and the 3 def uppers out of the game...now Player A goes to the op board and finds the best most mathmatical feats...and player B gets +2 att and def... and then Player A gets EVEN MORE POWERFUL...


SOme how online the arguement always goes "I do the math and find the best feats and can show you why this is the most bang for your buck, so I HAVE to take them before my lfavor feats"

But in real life all I see is "I do the math and find the best feats and can show you why this is the most bang for my buck, and every errata I find the new best of everything power, feat, you name it... so I only trade for the best and never take flavor I always take power"

So then I wonder if We ranked all feats in the game on a 1-100 scale with 100 being the most powerful and 1 being the least, how many people yelling for expertise (we will say easy in the 80's or 90's) to be givien for free would just take the next best feat, well the people who take the flavor stuff anyway would just get a minor bonus they wont care about... meaning alll we get are happy power gamers...
 

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