What's the big deal with "feat taxes?"

[Dannyalcatraz]

If by that point your character still needs these slots in order to take so-called creative "fluff" feats in order to make your character concept stand out... you've probably been doing something wrong up until that point.

Its not stuff to make your character concept "stand out", its stuff to make your character's mechanics match his concept.

I'm playing a low-level Dwarven Starlock multiclassed into Psion, but I've been looking at his potential feat selection over all 30 levels. As he is projected to be, all but 3 of his Epic level feats are accounted for, and only one Feat actually adds to his ability to hit: Hidden Sniper. (EDIT: forgot Improved Fate of the Void.)

And that said, at least 2 of the Feats I'd like to have for him to match the PC's concept in my head- and mentioned on this site- would be the ones that let him wear heavier armor and use more Dwarven weapons. Assuming that I do, indeed actually take those feats (either at Epic or Paragon), I'll be using some Epic slots for lesser feats. This would only leave one Epic feat slot for one of these "tax" feats. (Maybe Toughness...)

And that MAY be what happens.

 

[keterys]

The feat you are losing varies, but it's not "the last feat you'd take at 30" - it's whatever your very next feat is, at every level you're at.

So, if my 11th level deva invoker will next take the ability to speak Supernal, gaining the ability to read and write all languages, or the ability to slide a second target whenever I do an encounter or daily attack... or, y'know, Staff Expertise for +2 attack and ability to ignore opportunity attacks. Well, those all sounds pretty darn cool, and staff expertise isn't the logical one for me to skip.

I can willfully rebel against the system, and just be mechanically far worse. Or, y'know, not.

 

[C4]

I think half "the big deal" isn't the problem itself -- it's that WotC has the ample means to effect a free and honest fix. But instead of making everyone happy, they give us a half-hearted fix that we have to pay for. In more than one way.

As it happens, I got tired of waiting for WotC to fix the math hole and the game's few other glaring glitches. So I rewrote the rules for my group and I. Now I play the D&D I want to play.

But in actuality... if practically every single build suggestion I see here on ENWorld is taken at face value...

I suggest taking any online build with a grain of salt. Some players do take only feats like toughness and weapon/implement focus, because they're seen as too good to pass up or simply because they require no bookkeeping. But many players do in fact take those "+2 to attacks when you get your groove on" feats, and the skill trainings and whatnot. The rogue in my group actually has a skill focus in bluff!

And then there are players who refuse to pay their feat taxes for various reasons, and end up ticking off the other players because half the party is KOed and they just missed the dragon again.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The feat you are losing varies, but it's not "the last feat you'd take at 30"

Actually, his point is that the system allows you to take "lower level" feats with higher level slots, so you can effectively expand the number of Heroic and Paragon level feats you take by sacrificing some of those Epic 6. Hell, you could take ALL Heroic level feats if you so chose.

 

[Ryujin]

Actually, his point is that the system allows you to take "lower level" feats with higher level slots, so you can effectively expand the number of Heroic and Paragon level feats you take by sacrificing some of those Epic 6. Hell, you could take ALL Heroic level feats if you so chose.

Except that those feats are also skills and/or languages. The existence of the "feat taxes" has also had the peripheral effect of creating power creep in other feats, creating many that are far superior to the original concept of taking an extra language or skill with a whole feat. This is compensatory for forcing certain feats to be taken, for mechanical utility.

The fall-out is far more extensive than just affecting the number and time that you take feats.

'Losing' feats, at Heroic, hurts character concept in favour of mechanics. Using Paragon feats, to take Heroic feats, hurts both concept AND power. Using Epic feats, for the same purpose, is just silly.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think half "the big deal" isn't the problem itself -- it's that WotC has the ample means to effect a free and honest fix. But instead of making everyone happy, they give us a half-hearted fix that we have to pay for. In more than one way.

But this is nothing new. It's been this way and will continue to be this way until 5E. So to keep complaining about it is pointless. The existence of Expertise will not change. At this point it isn't a "big deal" because there is no other option.

It'd be like complaining about the NFL lock out and how it shouldn't have happened. Guess what? It DID happen, and we all have to accept it. And no amount of cursing the heavens will change that fact. The only thing we can do is adapt to the current situation of the NFL in a state of lock out... or wait until the status quo changes and the lock out ends. It's the same way with the "feat tax" situation.

 

[keterys]

Eh, when I ran a campaign I knew was going to end by 4th level recently, I started all PCs with

+1 Feat Bonus to Attack and Damage
Any superior implement or weapon proficiency desired.

And it led to a much wider variety of feats. *shrug* So, much like inherent bonuses, there are things that could be done. WotC could have a "DMG3" option to just give out some feat bonuses.

 

[C4]

So to keep complaining about it is pointless.

I agree, which is why I encourage others to do something about the math hole problem -- even if it's as simple as "everyone gets expertise and improved defenses for free." That's how the devs handle the problem in their home games.

It'd be like complaining about the NFL lock out and how it shouldn't have happened. Guess what? It DID happen, and we all have to accept it. And no amount of cursing the heavens will change that fact. The only thing we can do is adapt to the current situation of the NFL in a state of lock out... or wait until the status quo changes and the lock out ends. It's the same way with the "feat tax" situation.

I don't follow football, but I don't think your analogy is very apt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fans have zero control over the lock out situation, and are stuck with the consequences whether they like it or not.

D&D fans have no control over what becomes RAW, but we do have another option. House rules, honey!

 

[MrMyth]

But the reason many of us find this to be a somewhat false argument is because the assumption is if a person wasn't taking a so-called "feat tax" feat... they'd be taking some kind of esoteric "roleplay" feat to enhance their character concept or design.

But in actuality... if practically every single build suggestion I see here on ENWorld is taken at face value... most players don't even come close to doing that. They just go ahead and take the other important combat feats instead. I'm not seeing any of this "loss" that people claim are happening. They "have" to take Expertise at level 1... which just means Toughness, Superior Weapon Proficiency, Action Surge, Heavy Blade Opportunity and every other basic strong combat feat just gets postponed a level. Not really seeing any real loss or a big deal here.

At level 30, if I haven't taken Action Surge with my human, I miss out on +3 to hit once every other combat.

If I haven't taken Expertise, I miss out on +3 to hit (and other bonuses) on every single attack.

Seriously, I have seen plenty of characters well into Paragon who can easily get by without Toughness, a Superior Weapon, Action Surge, or Heavy Blade Opportunity. But Expertise is a completely differently.

I do get your point, that there are plenty of powerful or popular feats out there already. But when feats like Expertise show up that are several times more powerful than those popular feats, that's only more evidence of the problem!

Honestly, I think Paragon is really where the 'feat tax' is most felt. By Epic, while it still sucks to lose a feat, you've got enough slots to go around. In Heroic, missing out on the +1 to hit is doable.

But in Paragon, you may well still be assembling the feats that really define your character, and having to spend one on Expertise stings. And, by that point, the benefits of an Expertise feat are worlds above any other option - you don't have to take it, but doing without is definitely felt.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And then I ask again:

Is learning a weapon not an important goal, every adventurer should aim for?

I guess this is the time where I want my 2nd edition back, with weapon and nonweapon proficiencies seperated...
So combat and non-combat feats seperation would be somethig to think about in 5e.