Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[Numion]

5ft step is a free action. Don't need to stand up to fire a cross bow...

Moving one rung on a ladder is surely equivalent to a 5-ft step? YMMV...

But still, giving the kobolds an automatic ambush is a bit too much, don't you think? That would mean that any commoner could succesfully suprise PCs of any level by standing behind a corner. Doesn't sound like the D&D I know, where people gain immense power with levels.

 

[green slime]

Uh .. but you can't climb with a 5ft step, but I'll concede, it doesn't matter.

But you can step up onto a step...
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_|

So that the actual step is big enough to get head and shoulders out of the trench. What would that be? 15-20 cm? 6 inches?

 

[green slime]

But still, giving the kobolds an automatic ambush is a bit too much, don't you think? That would mean that any commoner could succesfully suprise PCs of any level by standing behind a corner. Doesn't sound like the D&D I know, where people gain immense power with levels.

The answer to this would be the Listen check. To hear that something is going on. The soft rustle of feet, the click as a crossbow is wound.

The Rogue has a good chance after the first encounter to recognize the "holes".

Or couting overhead, using Fly

In my game the rogue almost always scouts ahead flying and invisible.

From above, these holes would be fairly obvious.

But the matter remains, Resources would be expended to meet the threat! (Except in the case of Negotiation, but then you have actually paid a price in ranks in a skill which means no ranks in another skill)

In this case, Fly, Invisibility, Spot and Listen ranks, and what to do about those hiding in the ground? Having exposed the ambush, you still need to deal with it. Parley? Fireball?

The challenge for the PCs is to use as few resources as possible, while the DM needs to create a variety of challenges so the PCs tactics and spell selection doesn't remain static, and the PC resources get burnt up.

 

[Numion]

No, A single Kobold rushes out from behind cover and cuts the ropes to the rope bridge (or attempts to...) while the PCs are on the rope bridge...

Excellent tactic, IMO. But just not going to fly vs. high-level group. Say, a 4th level group would be wasted.

But your PC is constantly airwalking so he is safe. The Mage has featherfall so he is safe. The Rogue can leap off the bridge as it collapses and cling to the wall.
The fighter plummets down the chasm desperately trying to activate his boots of flying before becoming a spot of sizzling fat on the lava flow below. or takes 3d6 damage from the fall, what ever.

Well, ok, that could happen. I've DMed high-level games, and people like to avoid things like this with flight, windwalk or whatnot .. but I guess there's always one fighter who walks. But considering the insanely difficult set-up in Forge of Fury even without opponents, that fighter would be a goner anyway. I mean his chances of falling are about the same with or without the kobold.

I would NOT run orcs, goblins, giants, tarrasques or other beasties the same way. They have different descriptions in the MM. So is it the kobolds?

No. It's you, the DM. Tucker is strong with you

 

[Numion]

But the matter remains, Resources would be expended to meet the threat! (Except in the case of Negotiation, but then you have actually paid a price in ranks in a skill which means no ranks in another skill)

But if the normal MO is to scout up in the air invisible the resources would be spent regardless, no? So they weren't spent necessarily on the kobolds. Just like my cleric likes to activate around 20 spells when we adventure (most of my resources spell-wise), but then if we don't encounter anything, was I challenged? No.

In this case, Fly, Invisibility, Spot and Listen ranks, and what to do about those hiding in the ground? Having exposed the ambush, you still need to deal with it. Parley? Fireball?

The challenge for the PCs is to use as few resources as possible, while the DM needs to create a variety of challenges so the PCs tactics and spell selection doesn't remain static, and the PC resources get burnt up.

Well, do nothing. Let them ambush there

 

[Bauglir]

No, you do not need LOS to lob a grenade. Sorry.
And the surprise round gives them the opportunity to rush up.

The only text I could find in the SRD about grenadelike weapons said this:

*Grenadelike weapons require no proficiency to use. See text for full details on using these weapons.
**Grenadelike weapons deal splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of where they land.
***A miss requires a roll for deviation as for regular grenadelike weapons, but rather than dealing splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet, the weapon deals the same damage to all creatures within the blast radius of where it actually lands.

Nothing there about not needing LOS. Maybe there's something in the PHB?
And the surprise round only gives them a partial action to rush out, nothing else. Should they lose initiative they'll just be caught with their pants down and killed.

Sorry, I disagree as to the likelihood. In a prepared environment, of course they have good hideouts. But you just don't see that so surprise could be achieved, so, fine. Can't argue with that.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I'll say this at least - if the circumstance penalties are dominating the hide/spot rolls then it's not about the kobolds any more..

* 400 ?

If you say so.

EACH kobold doesn't get access to the funds x400 - if they blow it all on one trap then it'll be a nice trap, but the PCs will have nothing but naked kobolds to worry about after that.

Craft (trapmaking) is part of their abilities, having dire weasels is part of the make-up of a tribe (which I have stated three times at least...) and having levelled leaders... and still, people say, but it aint the kobolds, its the horse they rode in on!

Just like seniority among demons is part of the Balor's abilities. Just because they typically have this stuff doesn't mean that they suddenly become challenging. It means that the stuff is challenging (and as such the stuff is what makes the EL, not the kobolds)

If he brings them in using his Summon ability then no extra experience is granted. You may not like that, that is the way summon works.

I deliberately did NOT mention the summon ability because I know that's how it works. This guy just brought along his glabrezu squad because they work for him (maybe the encounter is in the abyss?).

And on that we can agree. But it isn't the single kobold (DR 1/6)crafting a trap, it is the entire tribe. But they will not be making CR 4 traps unless some of the levelled kobolds take ranks in that skill. So CR 3 is the real limit, and mundane equipment.

I don't follow. How can 2, 10 or even 400 kobolds make better traps simply through force of numbers?

 

[green slime]

Well, ok, that could happen. I've DMed high-level games, and people like to avoid things like this with flight, windwalk or whatnot .. but I guess there's always one fighter who walks. But considering the insanely difficult set-up in Forge of Fury even without opponents, that fighter would be a goner anyway. I mean his chances of falling are about the same with or without the kobold.

LOL! Yeah On that perhaps we can agree... Some people are just born so they can fail Balance checks! (my PCs HATE balance checks.)

No. It's you, the DM. Tucker is strong with you

Who, where is this tucker? AN old Dragon article?

 

[LuYangShih]

One Fly spell, plus Protection From Arrows, and a 10th level Wizard could wipe out all four hundred of the Kobolds by himself with little to no chance of being hurt, let alone killed.

 

[green slime]

The only text I could find in the SRD about grenadelike weapons said this:

Nothing there about not needing LOS. Maybe there's something in the PHB?

Think. Grenade. Throw (parabol trajectory). Can lob over walls. WHY would I need a LOS? Can't target, but that is why I use grenades, to chuck at things i can't see, around corners and the like. Perhaps this is why they are called grenade-like?

Some times you don't need rules to express common sense.

I don't follow. How can 2, 10 or even 400 kobolds make better traps simply through force of numbers?

1) 400 kobolds, a tribe, has several levelled members. These members have trained in various skills. PERHAPS one of them has advanced their trapmaking skill.

2) Aid another...? There are rules for this as well. Like the team piling on in a grapple, gaining +2 for each assiting grappler, you can add +2 for each assisting skilled person aiding the project. Some require a DC 10 check to see if they succeeed in assisting... YMMV.

 

[Bauglir]

Tuckers Kobolds was an old (badly written imo) AD&D module that pitted a high level party against a colony of kobolds in their warrens.

It involved traps like tunnels you had to crawl down, into which the kobbies would pour burning oil once you were inside.

I've only heard about it second hand but a lot of it seems very arbitrary to me. (Apparently PCs in said tunnel were considered helpless for purposes of CdG, because it 'restricted movement')