Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[green slime]

Zero. Just like I can't see who's in the next room at my office. The difference being that people in the offices around me aren't trying to ambush, which the kobolds were trying. So if they wanted to ambush the PCs, I sure as hell would require them to be in a position that allows attacking actually. How would you have them do that with just their ears showing?

I'd say that the hide skill is intended just for situations like that, without modifiers. Maybe +2 circumstance (why not use that instead of the more complicated reasoning about the sizes?) bonus if you're prepared the position.

But you can be in a position to ambush, without actually being visible. Where a 5 foot step will render you visible. five feet isn't much. But definitely so much as to hinder any chance of vision. So the chance to Spot is reduced by the actual size of what is visible. If the ears are the only possible thing sticking up, why should it be easier to spot than a rat? It isn't like there is a whole kobold to see.

The point was hiding in a hole in the ground, LISTENING for approaching PCs and doing X when they are approxiamately within range IS a valid tactic. Now some kobolds will probably screw up, and "attack" too soon

 

[Numion]

But you can be in a position to ambush, without actually being visible. Where a 5 foot step will render you visible. five feet isn't much. But definitely so much as to hinder any chance of vision. So the chance to Spot is reduced by the actual size of what is visible. If the ears are the only possible thing sticking up, why should it be easier to spot than a rat? It isn't like there is a whole kobold to see.

So, why do they even stick their ears out? Just stay in the holes fully, and get an automatic ambush on guys 10 levels above you, because by your logic the ambush is still possible (still only 5ft to move, and because you can't see them, no roll to spot).

Really, PCs should be given an opportunity to move when they see movement, in this case the Kobolds 5 ft move. That would depend on the PCs spot vs. normal hide from kobolds and initiative. Neither are certain, but then again that doesn't jive with the idea of Tuckers Kobolds. These little buggers even defy the basic process of getting more badass with more levels!

The point was hiding in a hole in the ground, LISTENING for approaching PCs and doing X when they are approxiamately within range IS a valid tactic. Now some kobolds will probably screw up, and "attack" too soon

Naah, they're Tuckers Kobolds, they have a hivemind or something and they all attack the same time. BTW, strange that we weren't taught that good tactics in the army. Sure would beat the hell out of actually spotting the enemy before ambushing (hey, the kobolds side brought up real life with the VC thing. Works both ways).

 

[Darklone]

The rooms will be a defense? How excactly are they a defense if there's no Kobolds, traps or Pet Red Dragons to defend them?

Easy example how a room might be a defense: Forge of Fury entrance room. Rope bridge over a chasm, archers on the other side. Arrowslits above the entrance tunnel. Things like that. These are not actual traps.

 

[Bauglir]

It does... You can detect the direction and approxiamate distance to an enemy. It lets you know that you can throw rocks / grenade-like missiles at the enemy. Sure you have to guess which square they are in and still suffer 50% miss chance, and the amount of damage done will be pathetic, but it is all about harrassing the PCs so they leave.

They still have to come out of their holes to do this, (need LOS to use their missiles)and this is a far cry from the 24 strong (somehow) unseen grappling squad suggested earlier in this thread.

But it does allow them to gain surprise and do what they will with that, surprise which was going to be impossible for the kobolds to acheive, according to certain voices.

Not impossible no. Just incredibly unlikely. Weak tools used with good strategy are ultimately still weak tools.

Another thought, Why are the Kobolds not allowed the traps and mundane equipment / allies they are listed with in their description? Nobody complains that the 13th level Blackguard encounter was wearing magical armour and wielding a magical great sword and had a fiendish companion... Items/Allies which boost the encounter beyond the capabilities of the NPC himself.

The kobolds can have class levels, allies and what not if they like, but unlike the Blackguard's fiendish companion they are not part of the kobolds' own inherent abilites. Same with equipment - the kobolds can have the few gold worth that they qualify for, although this won't add up to much of anything really.

A Balor enjoys a senior role in demon society (I believe -IDHTBIFOM). If the demon exercises this role and brings 20 Glabrezu to an encounter, is the fight still about the Balor (and should it be judged only EL 18? - after all the Balor only used the resources he had available, the 20 Glabrezu can be considered part of the Balor's challenge..)

I haven't espoused using high CR traps, only up to CR3, and only what could be reasonably manufactured by the kobolds themselves, with basically limitless time and manpower. Spiked pits, simple snares, using items found in the terrain. And clever use of Decoys!

I'm not familiar with the guidelines for the craft(trapmaking) ability in song and silence, but a creature being able to make a trap that's 12 times more deadly than itself doesn't seem right somehow.. (CR1/6 kobold making a CR3 trap)

I actually like a lot of AuraSeer's ideas on using kobolds when they are not such a main element in the story.

Me too. Kobolds make a great launching platform for, or distraction from other more dangerous things.

 

[Numion]

Easy example how a room might be a defense: Forge of Fury entrance room. Rope bridge over a chasm, archers on the other side. Arrowslits above the entrance tunnel. Things like that. These are not actual traps.

Again (sorry to get repetitive), hows that a challenge for a 13th level group? The rooms would have to be pretty damn inhospitable to life to be a challenge for 13th level group, that they would be unusable by the kobolds themselves. I'm talking liquid hot magma / poison vapors (sorry that don't even work / vacuum.

And again, that kind of environment would be pretty high EL with or without the kobolds. Which means that the kobolds aren't the challenge there. Which is in turn what this thread is about

EDIT, Ninja style!

 

[green slime]

They still have to come out of their holes to do this, (need LOS to use their missiles)and this is a far cry from the 24 strong (somehow) unseen grappling squad suggested earlier in this thread.

No, you do not need LOS to lob a grenade. Sorry.

And the surprise round gives them the opportunity to rush up.

Not impossible no. Just incredibly unlikely. Weak tools used with good strategy are ultimately still weak tools.

Sorry, I disagree as to the likelihood. In a prepared environment, of course they have good hideouts. But you just don't see that so surprise could be achieved, so, fine. Can't argue with that.

The kobolds can have class levels, allies and what not if they like, but unlike the Blackguard's fiendish companion they are not part of the kobolds' own inherent abilites. Same with equipment - the kobolds can have the few gold worth that they qualify for, although this won't add up to much of anything really.

* 400 ?

If you say so.

Craft (trapmaking) is part of their abilities, having dire weasels is part of the make-up of a tribe (which I have stated three times at least...) and having levelled leaders... and still, people say, but it aint the kobolds, its the horse they rode in on!

A Balor enjoys a senior role in demon society (I believe -IDHTBIFOM). If the demon exercises this role and brings 20 Glabrezu to an encounter, is the fight still about the Balor (and should it be judged only EL 18? - after all the Balor only used the resources he had available, the 20 Glabrezu can be considered part of the Balor's challenge..).

If he brings them in using his Summon ability then no extra experience is granted. You may not like that, that is the way summon works.

I'm not familiar with the guidelines for the craft(trapmaking) ability in song and silence, but a creature being able to make a trap that's 12 times more deadly than itself doesn't seem right somehow.. (CR1/6 kobold making a CR3 trap)

And on that we can agree. But it isn't the single kobold (DR 1/6)crafting a trap, it is the entire tribe. But they will not be making CR 4 traps unless some of the levelled kobolds take ranks in that skill. So CR 3 is the real limit, and mundane equipment.

 

[Numion]

But you can be in a position to ambush, without actually being visible. Where a 5 foot step will render you visible. five feet isn't much. But definitely so much as to hinder any chance of vision. So the chance to Spot is reduced by the actual size of what is visible. If the ears are the only possible thing sticking up, why should it be easier to spot than a rat? It isn't like there is a whole kobold to see.

Actually the hiding in holes and ambushing don't work. Climbing out of the hole > 5ft step and standing up (if crouching) > 5ft move. (They're both MEA). So there wouldn't be time to do anything on the suprise round.

 

[green slime]

Again (sorry to get repetitive), hows that a challenge for a 13th level group? The rooms would have to be pretty damn inhospitable to life to be a challenge for 13th level group, that they would be unusable by the kobolds themselves. I'm talking liquid hot magma / poison vapors (sorry that don't even work / vacuum.

And again, that kind of environment would be pretty high EL with or without the kobolds. Which means that the kobolds aren't the challenge there. Which is in turn what this thread is about

EDIT, Ninja style!

No, A single Kobold rushes out from behind cover and cuts the ropes to the rope bridge (or attempts to...) while the PCs are on the rope bridge...

But your PC is constantly airwalking so he is safe. The Mage has featherfall so he is safe. The Rogue can leap off the bridge as it collapses and cling to the wall.
The fighter plummets down the chasm desperately trying to activate his boots of flying before becoming a spot of sizzling fat on the lava flow below. or takes 3d6 damage from the fall, what ever. How much of a challenge would it be without any kobolds? Not a great challenge to walk over a bridge. Kobolds are more likely to have these set-ups, as that is the way they are described in the MM. sneaky little buggers. They use the environment to a greater degree than many other creatures because they are SO impotent in and of themselves. Each individual Kobold is just a thin, fragile, bag of blood waiting to pour out on the floor. Therefore the poison, the traps, the set-ups, the ambushes, the thievery. It is all part and parcel of "the Kobold Experience"

I would NOT run orcs, goblins, giants, tarrasques or other beasties the same way. They have different descriptions in the MM. So is it the kobolds?

 

[green slime]

Actually the hiding in holes and ambushing don't work. Climbing out of the hole > 5ft step and standing up (if crouching) > 5ft move. (They're both MEA). So there wouldn't be time to do anything on the suprise round.

5ft step is a free action. Don't need to stand up to fire a cross bow...

Moving one rung on a ladder is surely equivalent to a 5-ft step? YMMV...

 

[Numion]

5ft step is a free action. Don't need to stand up to fire a cross bow...

Uh .. but you can't climb with a 5ft step, but I'll concede, it doesn't matter.

Ahh.. .didn't notice your ninja-edit