Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[Bauglir]

Given the Craft (Trapmaking) +2, the Kobolds can manufacture mechanical traps up to CR 3 (Song and Silence, page 30). The DC to craft these traps is DC 20, which can be made by taking 20. (some of the traps made in this fashion will be failed traps! Probably skewering the odd kobold during its failed construction!)

These traps have a Search DC of 20, and a Disarm/Disable DC of 20.

You can't take a 20 where there's a danger involved with failure. Of course each kobold could keep trying and trying until they made the perfect trap, but this seems unlikely. If every kobold did this noone would make it past first level - they'd be annihilated by the traps of the CR 1/6 creatures...

Rope Trick is good. But I think those commoners wanted to actually inhabit the fort? Surely the PCs plan to move on sooner or later.

What's the challenge - the kobolds, or protecting the commoners?

And regarding the Spot checks, if there are 30 small hidden holes in the ground, covering a 90ftx90ft square area surrounding the party, which the party rogue Spots all of these, which hole contains kobolds? Which are decoys?

That would be the hole I can SEE the kobolds looking out of, since my spot is much higher than their hide.. Or do they just KNOW where the party is without having to actually look out of their warrens?

That is how they get close. That is how they get behind. That is how they run away. (some will get fried, beaten to a pulp, sizzled, splashed, smashed, electrocuted, poisoned, frozen, burnt, spliced, carved, exploded, ... some will survive, however)

No, that's fluff -describing HOW they hide doesn't change the fact that they have a low hide skill. If you apply massive circumstance penalties to spot rolls, or even worse, just arbitrarily decide that the kobolds succeed at hiding then the kobolds aren't providing the threat - the setup is. When you're bad at hiding (relatively speaking) a few tunnels won't make that much difference.

 

[Skinwalker]

This argument does a good job explaining why so many high level characters so often hire low level characters to take on Kobolds.

But seriously, as a (hopefully) impartial observer, here's what I am seeing in this thread:

The pro-argument emphasizes tactics and using a monster's resources to its fullest, using creatures that know their only advantages lie in skills and sheer numbers.

The con-argument emphasizes that sheer brute force is enough to eliminate any threat that may be posed by the pathetic, puny creatures.

Hey, both are valid styles. Neither one is strictly correct. However, I have a serious issue with the statement that Kobolds cannot be *fun* to face at high levels, though.

I find that once in a while it is fun to face an inferior opponent and give them a really sound thrashing as only high level characters can. If nothing else, imagine the overconfidence this might inspire in your PCs as they sally forth thinking they are in for another such cakewalk. C'mon -- Tell me there isn't a DM out there who doesn't laugh at the thought of their PCs underestimating the next challenge they face because they had an easy time ousting a clan of Kobolds.

 

[LokiDR]

The sheer number of kobalds make them a threat.

What is the treasure for a CR 13 on average? No apply this to the Kobalds in the form of bolas, alchemist fire, tanglefoot bags, and x-bows. In a surprize attack, I could make the PCs feel the burn, even if they did win. Focus on 1 PC untill they fall. Make sure the caster can't get a spell off without being hit with 40+ readied attacks.

It would be an utter mess to run, but it is more than possible. I have done the same before. The party was ambused by goblins. The javelins nearly killed three PCs.

If you apply logic, and give the monsters the distribution of class levels they do have, according to the race, the scales tip to kobalds even more. 15 hobgoblin's, 3rd level fighters with the mounted feats and lances can deal massive damage.

The onslaught of many weak creatures can be stopped by overly buffed and extreemly paranoid PCs. Those PCs only exist if the DM tries to kill them constantly. In the "average" case, the PCs are going to feel some pain before they win, and that is exactly what a CR 13 vs an APL 13 group should be.

 

[green slime]

You can't take a 20 where there's a danger involved with failure. Of course each kobold could keep trying and trying until they made the perfect trap, but this seems unlikely. If every kobold did this noone would make it past first level - they'd be annihilated by the traps of the CR 1/6 creatures...

My bad. Still, they spend their entire time setting traps, almost. So they roll. Piddling little pit traps all over.

What's the challenge - the kobolds, or protecting the commoners?

Well, without the story, the encounter becomes pretty boring, real fast. You have to have a story going, a reason for them to be there, the kobolds, and the PCs. That was the story handed to us by the poor DM trying to set this up. It sets shackles and limitations on the PCs. Which is good for the game, IMO. Otherwise you are just another Diablo-esque gamer, without consequences for the world outside your slaughtering.

That would be the hole I can SEE the kobolds looking out of, since my spot is much higher than their hide.. Or do they just KNOW where the party is without having to actually look out of their warrens?

A penalty, to Spot, or a bonus to Hide, given Concealment or Total Cover.

It isn't very difficult to HEAR the Full Plate wearing Fighters and Clerics as they CLONK along; Even when trying to move silently,
MEDIUM armour at speed 10 / round gives DC 5 +1/10 ft.
DC 0 + 1/10 ft, while trying to move stealthily isn't inappropriate. Or you could be justified in saying it couldn't be done in that armour...

No, that's fluff -describing HOW they hide doesn't change the fact that they have a low hide skill. If you apply massive circumstance penalties to spot rolls, or even worse, just arbitrarily decide that the kobolds succeed at hiding then the kobolds aren't providing the threat - the setup is. When you're bad at hiding (relatively speaking) a few tunnels won't make that much difference.

So if I hide in a chest, in a building, your character can see me from outside the building? Please, there is a limit to credibility. It isn't just fluff. I guess you have soldiers in WWI in trenches getting spotted lying at the bottom of the trench or pressed up against the trench wall with their helemts below the lip of the trench?

But sure, I'd grant a chance to spot a kobold that wasn't quite low enough in his hole (ears poking up over the edge), but not all of them... So I could roll 30 times for those kobolds, or just work off averages... 1 Kobold gets 20, then assume that because of the low profile (ears) that these creatures are only revealing part of themselves, and thus gain a bonus to their hide, so changing from +4 (small bonus to Hide skill) to +12 (Diminuative) grants +16 to Hide (original +8 plus 8 for only ears showing) and all of a sudden, you are more on par with the rogues Spot (he'll still notice 80% or more of them, but can he point out the 24 holes he sees occupied in six seconds?

And that assumes that they all sit with their ears visible.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Deathwatch
Necromancy
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: Quarter circle emanating from the character to the extreme of the range
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The character can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell’s range. The character instantly knows whether each creature within the area is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), undead, or neither alive nor dead (as a construct). This spell foils any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death.

----

"No creatures... no creatures... no creatures... ah! Seven fragile creatures. Probably about fifty feet that way, if they're hiding."

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

Deathwatch
Necromancy
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: Quarter circle emanating from the character to the extreme of the range
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The character can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell’s range. The character instantly knows whether each creature within the area is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), undead, or neither alive nor dead (as a construct). This spell foils any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death.

----

"No creatures... no creatures... no creatures... ah! Seven fragile creatures. Probably about fifty feet that way, if they're hiding."

-Hyp.

Good call Hypersmurf. Now how many PCs wander around with Deathwatch memorized? Let alone actually cast it outside of combat? Outside of this particualr group of rules lawyers, power gamers, assorted munchkins, and maniacal DnD fanatics that make up ENWorld?

Some call it "player stupidity" but most players actually have a life outside the game... (I don't, so I'm not pointing fingers )

 

[Bauglir]

Well, without the story, the encounter becomes pretty boring, real fast. You have to have a story going, a reason for them to be there, the kobolds, and the PCs. That was the story handed to us by the poor DM trying to set this up. It sets shackles and limitations on the PCs. Which is good for the game, IMO. Otherwise you are just another Diablo-esque gamer, without consequences for the world outside your slaughtering.

Agreed 100%. The conversation has been derailed somewhat. My issue is when external factors are introduced as proof of the effectiveness of kobolds vs a high level party, when it seems clear the that external factors are what provide the challenge and not the kobolds.

A penalty, to Spot, or a bonus to Hide, given Concealment or Total Cover.

It isn't very difficult to HEAR the Full Plate wearing Fighters and Clerics as they CLONK along; Even when trying to move silently,
MEDIUM armour at speed 10 / round gives DC 5 +1/10 ft.
DC 0 + 1/10 ft, while trying to move stealthily isn't inappropriate. Or you could be justified in saying it couldn't be done in that armour...

That just lets them know there's a party in the area, not find their location or see what they're doing, or launch any effective attack..

So if I hide in a chest, in a building, your character can see me from outside the building? Please, there is a limit to credibility. It isn't just fluff. I guess you have soldiers in WWI in trenches getting spotted lying at the bottom of the trench or pressed up against the trench wall with their helemts below the lip of the trench?

No, but I will spot them when they look out to fire, or just to see what's happening or come piling out in a group of 12 trying to grapple..

 

[AuraSeer]

Kobolds as weather

At what point of high numbers / low stats does something stop being a monster, and become part of the environment?

That's really what we're talking about here. If there are an effectively infinite number of kobolds, or if it's just impossible to exterminate them in the short term, they're really not an "encounter" anymore. They're an environmental effect, like cold weather or extreme heat.

If I ran this kobold-infested fortress, I wouldn't bother setting up every separate little ambush, nor would I worry about how many kobolds are left. Whever the PCs are active inside the fortress, they take 1d3 points of damage per hour, from traps or flung stones or whatever. (Special protection, like wraithform or similar, prevents the damage.) Characters are prevented from sleeping or regaining spells unless they use rope trick, or set up a locked and guarded room. Unprotected food and valuables vanish after five minutes. Finding and killing one or two kobolds is easy, but unremarkable, like swatting mosquitos in a swamp.

The kobolds don't grant any XP on their own, but they make life in the fortress more difficult. Therefore, if the PCs earn XP for defending the place from the outside threat, they get a 10% bonus for doing it while hampered by "bad weather."

That's my take on it, anyhow. YMMV.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Good call Hypersmurf. Now how many PCs wander around with Deathwatch memorized?

In ambush territory? At 10 minutes/level?

Hell, I would. It's a first level spell!

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

In ambush territory? At 10 minutes/level?

Hell, I would. It's a first level spell!

-Hyp.

Me too! But I think we are probably more versed in the vagaries of certain spells that in general are underused by a large number of players. For various reasons.