D&D General Tucker's Kobolds: worth using in 5e?

[Zardnaar]

One of the downsides of doing a Tucker-esque type of scenario is that you end up having to use so many, many low-powered enemies on the field just to counteract the odds of those enemies ever actually hitting. That was one of the main points about the Tucker's Kobolds concept... that players who thought they could never be harmed by lowly kobolds after a certain character level (back in the AD&D/2E era) found that not to be true when so many got thrown at them continuously throughout the entire dungeon that they WERE finding themselves getting hit (and they being unable to hit any of them back because they were all behind arrow slits and the like.)

But all that means is you as the DM just have to roll so many gosh-darned attack rolls all the time, just to see if like you can manage any hits when you need like nothing but 19s or 20s because the kobolds are so low-powered. And then you are stuck with these rare hits doing extremely minor attack damage... slowly plinking away at the PCs hit points. The whole Tucker's thing very much becomes a battle of attrition over round after round after round after round... the PCs unable to escape the dungeon, but 90% of all the kobolds unable to actually hit.

Now if you decide to up the power of the scenario by making it all trap-based, where you are no longer using the kobold stats for attack and damage but instead raising the CR by using more powerful traps that can actually do significant damage to the PCs, then it probably wouldn't be the same sort of slog. But it also would no longer be a true Tucker's Kobolds scenario at that point (if that actually even matters, which it probably shouldn't.)

Tucker don't really engage them in combat.

More placing obstacles, traps and manipulating the environment.
There were similar adventures in Dungeon 18 and 19.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think Tucker's Kobolds are more alive than ever. Due to bounded accuracy, and the way movement works in 5e, Kobolds can come out of small holes attack PCs and back out again.
And readying actions allow only single attacks or cantrips (or the risk of losing a big spell).

I guess, a DM could easily kill a level 5+ party with some 20 Kobolds if they want.
My magic item heavy level 4 party struggled against 12 to 16 orc guards on equal terms. In the end, both opponents retreated.

If you design the dungeon around them it still works. Kobold holes and the like.

What doesn't work is more kobolds. I ran Tallows Deep 5E and a wave of kobolds got cleared out by radiance of the dawn.

There's to many zones effects on to many classes. Eg spirt guardians, druids etc.

 

[Gecko85]

There's a 5e Adventurers League adventure that's loosely inspired by Tucker's Kobolds. It's a lot of fun. Might be a worth borrowing some ideas from.

https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/209228

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you design the dungeon around them it still works. Kobold holes and the like.

What doesn't work is more kobolds. I ran Tallows Deep 5E and a wave of kobolds got cleared out by radiance of the dawn.

There's to many zones effects on to many classes. Eg spirt guardians, druids etc.

Yes, zone effects are nasty. But against them, just wait until they run out.

 

[SkidAce]

I ran a sandbox campaign that had a section labeled fantasy #%^*ing Vietnam that was dirty with Tucker’s kobolds.

A group of PCs ventured there fairly early on. They came across a lone kobold, a decoy, that they wanted to torture for info. He ran into the bushes and they followed. There was a spiked pit trap on the other side of the bushes. Half the party fell in and took some damage. Then the waiting kobolds ambushed them. It was a deadly fight, CR wise. Starting down a few HP and a few PCs at the bottom of a spiked pit made it even harder.

None of the PCs died. Had two players rage quit because the trap wasn’t telegraphed. It must have given one of the other two PCs PTSD because he was hyper-cautious to the point of not taking a step anywhere without checking for traps for the rest of the game.

In my experience, new with 5E players cannot handle Tucker’s kobolds. And older players who wanted to deal with that kind of play would be playing OSR/NSR games, not 5E.

Good luck. But you probably shouldn’t.

Tucker's kobolds worked well for me.

Noob 5e players...infested kobold tunnels leading towards deeper dungeons.

They hated those kobolds. Game successful!

 

[TiQuinn]

The thing about using "Tucker's Kobolds" is that you should take inspiration from Tucker but not do what he did.

Post in thread 'Tucker's Kobolds -- really that tough a challenge?'

Jan 9, 2009

While it is certainly possible to use a low HD humanoid and challenge players, the specific problem I've always had with 'Tucker's Kobold's' type situations is that almost invariably they end up resolving to 'the DM judges the kobolds by different standards than he would judge the players'. Invariably, in 1st edition and 2nd edition desciptions of 'Tucker's Kobold's' type challenges, there are always special rules created to give the kobolds some advantage.

And even when there aren't, the kobolds still have less tangible but certainly important advantages that are the result of being run...

• Celebrim

The goal of "Tucker's Kobolds" should be to be fair to both players and monsters, playing intelligent foes as having plans and resources appropriate to their intelligence and wealth. It should not be to impress the players with how devious you are or to try to win. Never turn a monster or group monsters into a DM PC you are invested in.

So much this.

I’ve never liked Tucker’s Kobolds as presented. To me, it’s not really an exercise in making monsters smarter, it’s stage dressing for how can the DM, who has the total advantage of setting up the map, the obstacles, knows the party’s abilities beforehand, and can scale the monsters to be automatically overwhelming, work to defeat the players. It’s not smart monsters - it’s antagonistic DM behavior.

 

[SkidAce]

So much this.

I’ve never liked Tucker’s Kobolds as presented. To me, it’s not really an exercise in making monsters smarter, it’s stage dressing for how can the DM, who has the total advantage of setting up the map, the obstacles, knows the party’s abilities beforehand, and can scale the monsters to be automatically overwhelming, work to defeat the players. It’s not smart monsters - it’s antagonistic DM behavior.

How would you represent the difference between smart kobolds in large numbers and antagonistic DMing?

 

[TiQuinn]

How would you represent the difference between smart kobolds in large numbers and antagonistic DMing?

I would question why I need to present that kind of a challenge to players to begin with. Kobolds already have a solid ability in pack tactics that speaks to the way they engage enemies.

Counter question: what CR modifier or XP bonus would you place on Tucker’s Kobolds?

 

[SkidAce]

I would question why I need to present that kind of a challenge to players to begin with. Kobolds already have a solid ability in pack tactics that speaks to the way they engage enemies.

Counter question: what CR modifier or XP bonus would you place on Tucker’s Kobolds?

I have no idea.

My question was kinda asked because while a "Tucker" approach could definitely be an adversarial thing on the DM's part (not so good), it could also be an efficient approach (good) from creatures.

i.e. what would the difference look like in the result instead of the motive, or would we even see a difference in the end?

 

[TiQuinn]

I have no idea.

My question was kinda asked because while a "Tucker" approach could definitely be an adversarial thing on the DM's part (not so good), it could also be an efficient approach (good) from creatures.

i.e. what would the difference look like in the result instead of the motive, or would we even see a difference in the end?

So I think that’s part of the problem. I can sit down and come up with numerous different tactics and traps and map chokepoints to represent kobold warrens that benefit the kobolds and disadvantage the PCs but if I’m not stopping to think about whether I’m modifying the CR for the encounters and how that scales for the PCs at their current level, then I’m just engaging in an exercise in making this monster punch way above its weight.