D&D General Tucker's Kobolds: worth using in 5e?

[Celebrim]

How would you represent the difference between smart kobolds in large numbers and antagonistic DMing?

So, several things.

Can the Kobolds make things that aren't represented by amount of skill implied by their stat block? In 1e AD&D this is the intelligence listed for the monster. In 3e AD&D this the Craft (Traps) skill. Are the traps made by the Kobolds in line with the sort of crude relatively obvious traps that you would expect for this skill level or they masterful things worthy of an elf or drawf?

Do the Kobolds have the sort of resources we would expect? This is in AD&D the treasure type you'd expect for Kobolds, who don't actually have the sort of wealth normally that would mean infinite vials of flaming oil and so forth.

If the Kobolds are special kobolds with vastly more intelligence and wealth than normal, then how much are they actually "kobolds" and how much are they actually DM PCs that the DM is lavishing special care on? Is the DM really trying to portray kobolds using their resources to the best of their ability and simulating a cunning intelligent foe, or are you really just actually fighting the DM?

One way I would readily know as a player is if the Kobold's special resources could be taken from them and employed against them. If the Kobolds have special masterwork arrow tips that are +3 to hit the first time they are fired, can I hire the kobold making them to make some for me? Is there even a kobold making them that could be identified or are they just there by fiat? Can I steal them from the slain bold archers and use them against them? Or do they only work for kobolds? If the kobolds have special ways of opening the door fast, can I capture a kobold and force them to reveal the trick? Or is the knowledge so esoteric and gnostic it can't be communicated to anything but a kobold? If the kobolds are armed with 5000 gp. worth of flaming oil, can I find the petroleum oozing tar pit that they are mining and use it as a resource myself?

The think about Tucker's kobolds is that they don't have a logistics supply chain to cut off. They always have exactly what they need ready whenever they want it just when they need it. They don't have a logistics supply chain because the GM is their all powerful genie fulfilling their every wish. They don't have a communications network you can disrupt because they don't need one. The GM tells them everything they need to know, and they act as a perfect hive mind, instantly communicating across the whole dungeon level so as to coordinate perfectly.

You can of course make cool demihuman foes that utilize their resources and it won't be adversarial DMing, but there what you do is you list out some realistic resources that the tribe has and you limit yourself as a DM to what the demihumans could reasonably accomplish. You want masterful traps, you need masterful trap makers. You want masterwork weapons, you need master smithies. You want loads of weapons and equipment, then you need economic activity on the part of the tribe. And they probably won't have everything that they want to have, especially if they are just kobolds. You will have to make do with limited resources and have to watch the PC's screw up their plans and slaughter them in mass more often than not because the PCs have more resources. And if you are thinking, "Well, that's not what I want.", then you are adversarial GMing or else it's something like Duegar or Drow who canonically have those sort of resources (because Drow were Gygax's DM PC's).

 

[SkidAce]

So, several things.

Can the Kobolds make things that aren't represented by amount of skill implied by their stat block? In 1e AD&D this is the intelligence listed for the monster. In 3e AD&D this the Craft (Traps) skill. Are the traps made by the Kobolds in line with the sort of crude relatively obvious traps that you would expect for this skill level or they masterful things worthy of an elf or drawf?

Do the Kobolds have the sort of resources we would expect? This is in AD&D the treasure type you'd expect for Kobolds, who don't actually have the sort of wealth normally that would mean infinite vials of flaming oil and so forth.

If the Kobolds are special kobolds with vastly more intelligence and wealth than normal, then how much are they actually "kobolds" and how much are they actually DM PCs that the DM is lavishing special care on? Is the DM really trying to portray kobolds using their resources to the best of their ability and simulating a cunning intelligent foe, or are you really just actually fighting the DM?

One way I would readily know as a player is if the Kobold's special resources could be taken from them and employed against them. If the Kobolds have special masterwork arrow tips that are +3 to hit the first time they are fired, can I hire the kobold making them to make some for me? Is there even a kobold making them that could be identified or are they just there by fiat? Can I steal them from the slain bold archers and use them against them? Or do they only work for kobolds? If the kobolds have special ways of opening the door fast, can I capture a kobold and force them to reveal the trick? Or is the knowledge so esoteric and gnostic it can't be communicated to anything but a kobold? If the kobolds are armed with 5000 gp. worth of flaming oil, can I find the petroleum oozing tar pit that they are mining and use it as a resource myself?

The think about Tucker's kobolds is that they don't have a logistics supply chain to cut off. They always have exactly what they need ready whenever they want it just when they need it. They don't have a logistics supply chain because the GM is their all powerful genie fulfilling their every wish. They don't have a communications network you can disrupt because they don't need one. The GM tells them everything they need to know, and they act as a perfect hive mind, instantly communicating across the whole dungeon level so as to coordinate perfectly.

You can of course make cool demihuman foes that utilize their resources and it won't be adversarial DMing, but there what you do is you list out some realistic resources that the tribe has and you limit yourself as a DM to what the demihumans could reasonably accomplish. You want masterful traps, you need masterful trap makers. You want masterwork weapons, you need master smithies. You want loads of weapons and equipment, then you need economic activity on the part of the tribe. And they probably won't have everything that they want to have, especially if they are just kobolds. You will have to make do with limited resources and have to watch the PC's screw up their plans and slaughter them in mass more often than not because the PCs have more resources. And if you are thinking, "Well, that's not what I want.", then you are adversarial GMing or else it's something like Duegar or Drow who canonically have those sort of resources (because Drow were Gygax's DM PC's).

Agreed 100%.

I always looked at Tucker's Kobolds as utilizing what they had cleverly.

I will have to re read the story in case i missed unfair advantages such as you point out.

 

[Seramus]

Can the Kobolds make things that aren't represented by amount of skill implied by their stat block? In 1e AD&D this is the intelligence listed for the monster. In 3e AD&D this the Craft (Traps) skill. Are the traps made by the Kobolds in line with the sort of crude relatively obvious traps that you would expect for this skill level or they masterful things worthy of an elf or drawf?

Do the Kobolds have the sort of resources we would expect? This is in AD&D the treasure type you'd expect for Kobolds, who don't actually have the sort of wealth normally that would mean infinite vials of flaming oil and so forth.

They certainly seem capable of it, being possessed of average intelligence and having a natural affinity for traps that even Elves and Dwarves don't possess in their stat blocks. We also know they built entire nations such as Darastrixhurthi, considered a marvel of structural engineering for the time. So they should be capable of building pretty much anything any other race can, and maybe a little more!

But no, they generally have squat for resources, and squat for education in most portrayals. Which marks them as perfectly capable but deeply ignorant. This ignorance could be overcome in a number of ways, theoretically - being integrated into a higher education culture, having a powerful leader intentionally try to educate them (possibly over generations), just having some decent quality books on a particular subject and a tradition of reading those specific tomes, etc.

 

[Charlaquin]

Agreed 100%.

I always looked at Tucker's Kobolds as utilizing what they had cleverly.

I will have to re read the story in case i missed unfair advantages such as you point out.

From what I remember, they had significantly better armor than kobolds normally do, they used a lot of oil, and they used Kobold-sized access tunnels to get around and beat the PCs to wherever they were going. We can’t know for sure if the kobolds movements within these tunnels was fiat-based or carefully planned out, or if they had a set supply of oil or just as much as they needed to have to win. Their superior armor definitely sounds like a case of modifying the kobold stat block rather than playing the stats as-written extremely efficiently.

All that said, the story is told from the perspective of a player in Tucker’s game, and the player seems to be recalling the experience very fondly, rather than complaining about the adversarial GM cheating to make Kobolds overpowered. The story is also likely being at least somewhat embellished for entertainment purposes. So, I think the reality of how fair Tucker was playing is impossible to know, and the story kind of acts as an inkblot test. If you love the idea of making weak monsters a real threat with nothing but excellent tactical play, that’s what you’ll see Tucker doing. If you hate the idea of the GM giving unfair advantages to their pet NPCs so they can thwart the players no matter what they do, that’s what you’ll see Tucker doing.

 

[bedir than]

Counter question: what CR modifier or XP bonus would you place on Tucker’s Kobolds?

In researching this answer I discovered my earlier advice on Tasha's was wrong.
Use Xanathar's chapter on Traps

Xanathar's Guide to Everything - Shop D&D Beyond

Unlock a wealth of new rules options for both players and Dungeon Masters, including 27 subclasses and 95 spells, in this D&D supplement

www.dndbeyond.com

The xp is based on the tier of the design, using 5e's 4 tier system.

 

[TiQuinn]

In researching this answer I discovered my earlier advice on Tasha's was wrong.
Use Xanathar's chapter on Traps

Xanathar's Guide to Everything - Shop D&D Beyond

Unlock a wealth of new rules options for both players and Dungeon Masters, including 27 subclasses and 95 spells, in this D&D supplement

www.dndbeyond.com

The xp is based on the tier of the design, using 5e's 4 tier system.

I think that's the starting point for using Tucker's Kobolds. Plan for how dangerous you want to make an encounter, and create the appropriate traps.

 

[TiQuinn]

The other thing about the Tucker's Kobolds story - why was it better to fight the big fire demons on level 10 who presumably are more intelligent than the kobolds on level 1? Was he underplaying the level 10 demons while overtuning the level 1 kobolds?

 

[Seramus]

Was he underplaying the level 10 demons while overtuning the level 1 kobolds?

Very likely hyperbole for the sake of entertainment, and the kobolds giving them nothing of value compared to the demons.

 

[Koloth]

I have long thought that many encounters with intelligent critters are often played as though those critters were mindless automatons that always fight to the bitter end. I have seen zombies fight with more brains then a lot of other encounters depending on how well the creator programmed them. Refreshing to see intelligence, time, and resources being used.

Scary thought. Imagine the defenses an ancient very intelligent wealthy dragon would have if it applied the Tucker's Kobolds treatment to its lair.

As far as kobold logistics, a lot will depend on how often their lair is attacked. If they were attacked last week, very likely many of the defenses are down. If they have been there 10 years and this is the first party to try it, probably sucks to be the party.

Also possible that ancient wealthy intelligent dragon who's lair is much deeper in the cave complex is paying/supplying the kobolds to be an early warning system.

 

[Clint_L]

So much this.

I’ve never liked Tucker’s Kobolds as presented. To me, it’s not really an exercise in making monsters smarter, it’s stage dressing for how can the DM, who has the total advantage of setting up the map, the obstacles, knows the party’s abilities beforehand, and can scale the monsters to be automatically overwhelming, work to defeat the players. It’s not smart monsters - it’s antagonistic DM behavior.

Sure, but that's just a balance issue. I think the concept is great fun; you just have to balance it so that the players can adapt and overcome unless they insist on being stupid. I've also used a similar concept when the point is for the party to get through the area as quickly as possible, not clear it out and loot it.