For context, research how fireballs expanded in AD&D, and Lightning Bolts bounced.
D&D General Tucker's Kobolds: worth using in 5e?
- Thread starter Jolly Ruby
- Start date
Even in Gold Box games, bouncing lighting was lethal!
Zardnaar
Legend
Think it was it in 2E as well.
Retros_x
Hero
whenever you want? When its good enough? There are no holy rules about tuning encounters, you do what you think what is best for your game. If you think your players enjoy the challenge of kobolds being very tactical with their traps, do it. If you think your players prefer simple hack n slash without intelligent enemies - do that. Its not rocket science.
In general I really don't understand some of the assumptions in this thread about Tucker and his players. I guess from a simulationist's perspective the amount of oil vials Tuckers kobolds had doesnt make sense, but arguing that this means he was an adversarial DM is wild. Not everybody is a Simulationist, not everybody cares about the detailed logistics and economics of their world and some people prefer designing their adventures from a cinematic perspective. What is cool and not what has rational logistics.
edit: I edited out some snappy comments, sorry for that, was a bit in a bad mood not related to this topic.
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Newsflash: my comments are not about Tucker specifically. They’re about the article and how others used it over the years to justify adversarial DMing. If you want, you can go back and read my initial post where I explained that as opposed to answering simply this last post which is being taken completely out of context.
Also, I have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to Simulationism or logistics or economics. That seems to be an argument you’re having with another person entirely.
Retros_x
Hero
My anwer was also not about Tucker specifically, but you asking when do you stop overtuning the encounter via "non-CR" methods. I also don't think you should modifiying the CR, because these tactics are not really making a mathematical mapping possible. You just have to use CR as starting base and than adjust encounter design and monster tactic depending on how hard and "war-like" your players enjoy the game. Thats what I meant with "its no rocket-science" you can't really calculate a CR for it.
But the good part is, if you realize you might overtuned it you can easily throttle it down and just play the kobolds or whatever less intelligent and tactical. But in the end all the non-math related parts of encounter design are more vibe-based and grounded in experience as DM.
Yes, this was just my comment on a general string of opinions in this thread, was not directed at you.
on the side note, I already wrote in the edit of my last comment: I apologize for my snappy tone like "newsflash". Was in a grumpy mood that had nothing to do with you or this topic. I realized it, but when I edited you've already read and answered to me. Its not good tone for a discussion and thus I apologize for the passive-agressive snappy parts of my original comment.
As another poster pointed out, there is an encounter/trap building section in Xanathar’s Guide that does cover adjusting CR. Further, I think that adjustment to CR is necessary. My stance is if the DM is increasing the difficulty of the encounter with “exceptionally smart” monsters, then they need to both have a way of creating guard rails for still making sure the overall encounter isn’t overly deadly, and the XP rewards are commensurate for the new encounter.
Without it, it’s all just antagonistic DM territory stuff when in the hands of your average DM. This may have been fine for Tucker, and he may have had a deft enough hand to know when to rein it in for his table, but I think without the above considerations, it’s just a bad idea.
Celebrim
Legend
So the question becomes when does fiat to produce "what is cool" become adversarial DMing to stroke your own ego rather than designing cool encounters with as the original article called them "simply well-armed and intelligent beings who were played by the DM to be utterly ruthless and clever".
And I think the answer is when the GM is extensively ruling in favor of the monsters to give them breaks he would have never given the player characters in the same situation. And this can include granting nigh infinite resources to the monsters.
Imagine a situation where some player brags about how intelligently he plays his character and how he can defeat any encounter, and then you say, "Well, show me." and he says, "Well I have a vorpal sword +5 and a helm of brilliance and a ring of infinite wishes. Aren't I clever for having those things? I win easily." Obviously, you do win easily in a hypothetical Monte Haul situation where you are given every resource you want during CharGen but that doesn't really prove you are clever. And likewise, that the monsters have nigh infinite resources doesn't prove they are clever either.
Really look at what is written in the original article.
"These kobolds were just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that..." Were they though? Were they really just nothing more than regular kobolds, or were they given lots and lots of special powers things that weren't written down that they just had by DM fiat because he wanted to win?
Nothing about the description makes sense.
"The kobolds caught us about 60′ into the dungeon and locked the door behind us and barred it. Then they set the corridor on fire, while we were still in it."
So did the kobolds win a surprise roll? Was such a roll made or do these "regular kobolds" have a special "automatically gain surprise" rule? The kobolds are like a maximum of 60 feet from the party at this point. How are they hiding from a typical PC party? Was any allowance for the possibility of detecting the kobolds allowed at all or do the kobolds move silently and hide in shadows with 100% probability and that should also be added to their character sheet? How many actions can they safely make in a single round? Do unobserved kobolds effectively have haste? Remember, 1e AD&D kobolds have a base speed of 6". And this will come up later.
And then they set a corridor on fire. OK. Stone corridors don't usually ignite. So what was on the floor that was so flammable? Straw? Great. One or two canteens of water would stop that, and anyone that has burned pine needles or grass know that unless it's really deep you are only going to have a flame you can step over. And if it was super deep or soaked in oil or something, was that really mentioned? Because if it was, why the heck didn't the party set it on fire before even entering? Surely that's something that would seem pertinent. But the kobolds don't seem to only get automatic surprise but their plans do as well.
"Thus encouraged, our party scrambled down a side passage, only to be ambushed by more kobolds firing with light crossbows through murder holes in the walls and ceilings. "
Anyone that has played a 12th level character in 1e AD&D know that this situation is entirely non-threatening. A 12th level character is more likely to hit a kobold through a murder hole or arrow slit than a mere 0HD kobold is to hit them. The expected damage per round just isn't much of anything. The kobolds are basically going to hit 1 time in 20. The PCs are going to hit with virtually every missile attack. That is, unless there is just fiat going on here that says you can't win.
"Kobolds with metal armor and shields flung Molotov cocktails at us..."
Read the description of kobolds in the 1e AD&D monster manual. These are no more normal kobolds than if they had 4HD. But perhaps more to the point, kobolds in metal armor should have a movement rate of 3" per round or less. These aren't fast.
"...from the other sides of huge piles of flaming debris, which other kobolds pushed ahead of their formation using long metal poles like broomsticks."
Really? How heavy are these huge piles of flaming debris that I can keep shoving them forward with "long metal poles"? That pole itself might weigh 90 pounds. Would the PC's be allowed to implement this plan, or would realism come into play with PC's plans and cinematic come into play with the kobolds plans? There isn't anything wrong with cinematic games were the rule of cool is applied regularly, but my guess based on this description is that the rule of cool was only applied in favor of the kobolds where as in the name of gritty realism endless problems would crop up in all player plans. The fire would burn out too quickly, or be put out by pushing it, or be too heavy to push, or not light quickly enough, or whatever.
" but we were cut off by kobold snipers who could split-move and fire, ducking back behind stones and corners"
At that point I'm getting up and leaving the table and saying, "Thanks for the game Tucker". Because the thing is, split-move and fire isn't really in the rules of AD&D. If a player proposed that their 12th level fighter could split move and fire and duck back before return fire could be made I would bet Tucker would then say, "No, that's against the rules. The turn order of operations doesn't work that way" or what have you. But the supposedly normal just basic 1d4 h.p. kobolds apparently have yet another special power that lets them split move and fire. But what's even worse about this is that I basically just want to say "So what?" A 12th level character might have -4 A.C. If all we really have are 1/2 HD monsters "launching steel-tipped bolts and arrows, javelins, hand axes" then this isn't even really a problem. The party should be absolutely slaughtering the kobolds. The fighters strictly by the rules should be getting 12 attacks per round. There are potentially characters in a 12th level party that have -5 AC which means the kobolds would need to roll a 21 to hit. And attacking with hand axes? They have short range of 1" and are at medium by 2" and long by 3". Are range penalties ever applied to the kobolds? How is this even supposed to sound threatening to high level characters IF (and this is a big IF) these are really only kobolds and the GM isn't fudging on their behalf at every opportunity. Maybe if the characters are fifth or sixth level this should be a big deal, but name level and higher characters? I don't buy this game was being run fairly.
All these Molotov cocktails and not one time is the answer, "Every time we kill a kobold, there is a 100% chance they drop their flaming oil, the bottle is forced to make a saving throw again falling, and if the glass fails (which it does 100% of the time when thrown apparently, so dropping it should have a reasonable chance), it kills every kobold near it." Of course, unless the kobolds are always going first, always winning surprise, etc. The power of having DM fiat on your side is equal to an enormous number of things on your character sheet.
"It was then we discovered that these kobolds had honeycombed the first level with small tunnels to speed their movements. Kobold commandos were everywhere."
Really? Those metal armored kobolds should still have a speed of 3" and are still under 1 HD. Kobold commandos are still not threatening to 12th level characters. They need 20's to hit. The fighters only miss on 1's and get 12 attacks per turn. 12th level wizards don't need a fireball to kill kobolds. And wand of magical missiles alone should depopulate the level unless there is an infinite kobold generator.
The thing that doesn't ring true about the story at all is that as an official RBDM these aren't even particularly nasty or creative monsters by my standards. The sort of things the kobolds are doing in this story are particularly horrifying if the dice are being used fairly and the rules are being applied to everyone. I 100% know from experience that low level monsters apply these tactics should go down like chumps by the scores or hundreds. This shouldn't even be terrifying to a large high level party. This should be ho hum normal. If it wasn't, and apparently it wasn't, it's because it was rigged.
As a GM I'm not inspired by this story. I guffaw at it because it doesn't match my experience of the game at all. The only thing it matches is stories I've heard about other GMs how had pet Drow commandos that couldn't die no matter what. The players would tell stories about how the named Drow NPCs would just pass every saving throw, take multiple actions in a round, and just basically always do what they wanted no matter what the players did. The group had instituted a "No Drow" rule because they were just fed up with GM fiat to make his foes "cool". Tucker was just doing it with kobolds, which has to be an even worse case of self-ego stroking.
Could I do it with kobolds? MUHAHAHAHA. Of course I could. I could make these little gits look tame, but that isn't really the point. I could even explain it better and break fewer rules running it. GMs can always win if they want to. It's not impressive to win as the GM. But that's the thing, I wouldn't really be doing it "with kobolds". You'd be fighting me. But what's the point of fighting the GM? He has rule zero. He has infinite resources. That's not even a cool scenario.
