Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Originally posted by Numion
Yeah but it relied on player stupidity.

Which is an endless resource, especially if they see "kobold" and think "this is a cakewalk, hardly a challenge, yadda yadda".

Never underestimate the power of stupidity.

Let me state again: overcoming "challenge" doesn't require you to a) kill all the kobolds, just deal with them. Like teleport away.

As a DM I'd count that as running away - no (or reduced) exp. No exp if you t-port without ever engaging.

Or negotiate with them (easy with intimidate +20).

Great, unless you consider the benefit of visibly outnumbering people, but doable (but how many players would think of actually *gasp* talking their way out of an encounter? I play a social paladin and even after 4 months of play I still hear jaws dropping when I decide to talk to a NPC instead of rolling to hit).

b) or require you to bend over to your DMs sadistical visions of Tuckers kobolds that just don't fail, rules be damned.

Whine, whine, whine. Nothing in the example given is unsurmountable, but if, as a player, your standard behaviour is to cakewalk or sit and cry because something is too hard I don't want you at my table - play Diablo II instead.

- Ma'at

 

[green slime]

Yeah but it relied on player stupidity. Oh yeah, and traps. And players stupidity. You always assume that PCs would fight on the kobolds' terms. But the initiative is on the PCs with their superior magics, intelligence (as in intelligence agency, divinations etc.) and mobility. Take one alive or dead and interrogate the hell out of it. Easy with spells or skills.

Let me state again: overcoming "challenge" doesn't require you to a) kill all the kobolds, just deal with them. Like teleport away. Or negotiate with them (easy with intimidate +20). b) or require you to bend over to your DMs sadistical visions of Tuckers kobolds that just don't fail, rules be damned.

And how many PCs have +20 in Intimidate at 13th level? They MIGHT get by with a good roll and +10 bonus, depending on the offer/suggestion/threat . But that in itself is reward for placing points there.

"Just dealing with them" IS the whole idea! Because TRYING to kill them all is doomed to failure! And the sooner these souped up super heroes realise this, the better. However, MANY PCs are generally too cocky for their own good, and come across, "we aren't going to be told what to do, I'm mighty, the sword X is mighty, the mage is mighty, we'll teach these kobolds a thing or two..." Only to fall flat on their faces

Teleport away. Sure. That'll save everyone (13th level character can't teleport 64 humans with one spell...). Doesn't deserve any XP, though. Still, burnt a few resources...(Which IS STILL the WHOLE IDEA behind Challenge Ratings, to burn PC resources, this is WHY 400 kobolds IS a CR 13 encounter) Now he won't be able to Teleport later in that same day...

Gwarok:
You just want the next big monster in your PCs belt.

Well some of us like a change of pace. Whether YOU find it an interesting challenge or not. Some of us find just moving up to the next big monster somewhat stretching the credibility of the game, not to say makes for a very static gameplay. 20 levels*13.33 encounters = 266.6 encounters from one BBEG to the next seems a tad tedious. So much for that recommendation.

[sarcasm]
Gwarok, I feel sorry for the games you play in, if that is the criteria by which you play. Your games must be pretty predictable.
[/sarcasm]

You are being pretty nasty and judgemental, given that you know absolutely NOTHING about the game in discussion, apart from this one single encounter!

 

[Numion]

Numion, I think the problem is that you keep thinking like this is just one encounter.

Okay, you have 4 party members, and the mage gets 5 2nd level spells. How many are you going to use to protect from arrows? And it will only last about 2 hours!!! (metamagic not withstanding) Now,what about the rest of these 'standard' stuff. How many spells are you going to use up on defense? How long do they last? What is left for offense? What do you do tomorrow when you can only get 2 hours of sleep at a time,so can't get more spells.

Sorry, but I think that the 13th level PCs can choose when to encounter the kobolds. They can make themselves look like kobolds, charm a kobold to tell about the traps, interrogate to same effect .. etc. figure out what is their objective and get there.

You keep thinking that the PCs want a dragged out fight with the kobolds. In fact, they don't. They're likely just teleporting in, getting what they need, and leave. Just like if there wasn't kobolds. The spells are a resource likely spent to navigate the place, and not spent on kobolds as you like to argue. Kobolds actually might make navigating the tunnels (if thats absolutely necessary) easier, since they'll surely tell the right way through the traps if captured.

Why? They have a +8, and spot gets modifiers. If there is nothing to spot, or only a peephole etc. Plus xbow has an 80ft range increment, that is -8 to your spot check. If I can distract you, that is another -5 (like running to get to the kobolds, or chasing after them) But I think the biggest one is if there is nothing to really spot. (behind a door, on top of a ledge, etc. Remember, there are *400* of them, the ambushers don't have to be able to see you. And you willconstantly have them watching you from a distance, so that shouldn't be a trigger.

First tell me why the characters would even chase a kobold? Just do what you came to do, and damn the kobolds. There is no need to kill and chase them. Just do what you came to do, without caring about the kobolds.

That is one CLW per damage. You keep thinking of this as only one encounter. If they can do one ambush per hour, and damage every other ambush, that is *12* CLW. Also, getting you stuck and on fire, or grappled with multiple dagger attacks, or dropping heaving objects on someone. Those would be more than one CLW. And again, what happens tomorrow, when you haven't have enough rest to get more spells

Sorry I meant to write a charge of CLW wand. Usually 13th level PCs carry a stack. 750 gp for 50 CLWs isn't a resource for 13th level dudes.

At least thats I would handle it. Recon the kobolds, capture one, interrogate, charm or whatever, get a clue, and dont get in any boring 3 pt exchanges.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Originally posted by Numion
Sorry, but I think that the 13th level PCs can choose when to encounter the kobolds. They can make themselves look like kobolds, charm a kobold to tell about the traps, interrogate to same effect .. etc. figure out what is their objective and get there.

So could a level 1 party (charm person, change self) - so you are telling me that kobolds aren't even a challenge for a level 1 party?

At least thats I would handle it. Recon the kobolds, capture one, interrogate, charm or whatever, get a clue, and dont get in any boring 3 pt exchanges.

Great - and you would get a reward for overcoming a challenge. That's the point of the encounter. Not every encounter is potentially fatal to a PC party.

No one was arguing that 400 Kobolds was an impossible encounter - only that to approach like you would a random encounter with a CR 13 monster (like a couple of lesser demons, or a mid-sized elemental) would be stupid. It's a challenge. You thought your way through it. You get the cookie.

- Ma'at

 

[green slime]

And as to people complaining about the use of traps, reread the Kobold entry in the MM.

Traps are part and parcel of the Kobold "Experience".

Tarrasque and traps, are not.

The Kobold Entry states:

They spend most of their time fortifying the land around their lairs with traps and warning devices.

It goes on to give an example.

Given: most traps will be a cake walk. Most traps will be spotted straight away by the rogue.

But not the fighter who charges ahead, nor the mage who ducks behind a tree, nor...

And disarming all these traps, will slow the party rogue down. While disarming, he isn't spotting!

Really. The largest outcry against this is:

It ain't Kobolds doing the damage!
Same could be said for ANY encounter. It ain't the Barghest, it was the corner it was hiding behind! NOTE, however, that the kobold entry specifically mentions traps, poisonous vermin, favoured class sorcerer, Find Traps skill, dire weasels, levelled kobolds in tribes. It also states how many are eggs and noncombatants.

It ain't fun!
Says you. Subjective opinions don't hold much water. Some players will enjoy the change of pace and challenge. Some players will knowingly NOT negotiate, because it is more fun to fight a real, prolonged battle against a tricky foe. Instead of a three round smash-up. (Quickened haste,disintegrate, AMF (on fighter),... BIG challenge...)

But there are so many ways to avoid this encounter!
Like there aren't anyways to avoid the encounter with the BBEG? Teleport is a valid runaway tactic against many enemies. Doesn't earn you much XP though...
And Negotiation... Well those are the perks of putting points in those skills!

I really don't see many other arguments against this, and of all of them, the "it aint fun is the most pathetic, as nobody is asking you to participate in such a battle. What, you got some repressed DnD memories somewhere involving hordes of kobolds?

 

[Bauglir]

What does the Kobold have going for it? A *brain*. To say that the traps/tunnels/etc are 'not just kobolds' is to treat them as nothing more than a "you enter a room..." statblock.

Ultimately the kobolds ARE just a statblock. If they're using their +2 trapmaking skill to make traps that a 13th level party can't effortlessly bypass something is wrong.

What makes Dragons hard to kill? They have a brain, and use it to best advantage. That means not being in vulnerable areas, that means changing terrain to match your strengths, etc.

Good hitpoints, saves and powerful abilites both in magic and in melee is what makes dragons hard to kill. An encounter with a dragon does not need to be loaded with traps, class levels and what not to make it a challenge.

You see 4 kobolds, so the fighter gives chase, the kobold runs over a pit trap,fighter too heavy... or kobold runs under ledge, they drop rocks on fighter, or 12 kobolds take one xbow shot at him, so he doesn't get dex or shield bonus.

With craft(trapmaking) of +2 that pit trap will be noticeable with a not too difficult spot check, and then an easy reflex save to avoid falling in should you fail to spot it. Similarly, spotting the 12 hidden kobolds shouldn't be that difficult with their +8 hide. Maybe the fighter's spot won't be great, but even without his dex they'll still have a hard time hitting him.. This is the point at it's core - any tactics used by the kobolds will ultimately be fueled by their poor stats and will be effortless to overcome by 13th level players.

Thief finds trap, and tries to disarm it. Kobolds left trap on purpose to delay thief, while disarming he is distracted, no dex bonus, etc.

Uncanny Dodge

Spellcasters *better* kill all the kobolds in one day, because they are *never* going to get enough sleep to gain spells again. Remember, the kobolds don't have to kill, or even hurt the mage, just keep waking him up.

Rope Trick

Kobolds stick out of small passages/sewers/tunnels/whatever. They get a free shot or two. Do you chase them? Do they have oil to pour into the tunnel? Do they have a xbow to attack with once you can't move much? Do you just let them get away?

No you just shoot back. In the unlikely event that the players don't spot the hiding kobolds then they're only getting partial actions on their surprise round. The players just need to win initiative to shoot back (and kill) the kobolds before they can get back into their tunnels.

You get attacked from a building, as you start to respond, the 24 from behind fire, again no dex, shield, etc.

How did these 24 get behind unseen. Remember there's no facing in D&D so the party always gets spot checks vs the kobolds' hide skills.

Or, as the fighter goes to enter the building, with the rogue. The Mage gets grappled from behind and suffers 12 dagger attacks.

Them managing to sneak right up on a 13th level party is just silly. Landing a touch attack on a spelled up wizard is no easy task either, and even if they do their 6 str and small size is not condusive to good grappling, even vs a wizard.

The kobolds run before the fighter gets back. If the fighter *does* try and come back, the ones in the building keep shooting at him.

It takes 2 rounds for the kobolds to grapple and attack the wizard. What's he doing lagging THAT far behind the fighter and rogue?


These tactics would all work on an even footing, but none of them take into account the kobolds' sheer inability to affect a 13th level party in any meaningful way due to the scaling power effect of D&D levels.

 

[green slime]

Given the Craft (Trapmaking) +2, the Kobolds can manufacture mechanical traps up to CR 3 (Song and Silence, page 30). The DC to craft these traps is DC 20, which can be made by taking 20. (some of the traps made in this fashion will be failed traps! Probably skewering the odd kobold during its failed construction!)

These traps have a Search DC of 20, and a Disarm/Disable DC of 20.

Now the 13th Rogue is going to "Spot" these in his sleep (16 ranks, +stat mod, +item), and disarm them as well, but the Fighter... Fighters generally don't have Search skill. And if the entire countryside is dotted with these traps, the party had better stick close to the rogue or start flying.

Reflex save is still DC 20.
The Rogue skips away, the charging Fighter (Base Reflex +4, Stat mod +3, item +3) has a 50% chance to plunge 40ft (4d6) narrowly avoiding the spikes at the bottom. He flies back out, drinking a potion of cure moderate wounds somewhat annoyed.

Rope Trick is good. But I think those commoners wanted to actually inhabit the fort? Surely the PCs plan to move on sooner or later.

And regarding the Spot checks, if there are 30 small hidden holes in the ground, covering a 90ftx90ft square area surrounding the party, which the party rogue Spots all of these, which hole contains kobolds? Which are decoys?

That is how they get close. That is how they get behind. That is how they run away. (some will get fried, beaten to a pulp, sizzled, splashed, smashed, electrocuted, poisoned, frozen, burnt, spliced, carved, exploded, ... some will survive, however)

 

[Numion]

Originally posted by Numion
So could a level 1 party (charm person, change self) - so you are telling me that kobolds aren't even a challenge for a level 1 party?

1st level party can die while trying to charm the kobolds. They would be challenged by the kobolds.

Great - and you would get a reward for overcoming a challenge. That's the point of the encounter. Not every encounter is potentially fatal to a PC party.

No one was arguing that 400 Kobolds was an impossible encounter - only that to approach like you would a random encounter with a CR 13 monster (like a couple of lesser demons, or a mid-sized elemental) would be stupid. It's a challenge. You thought your way through it. You get the cookie.

Yeah, I thought a way through it, without using 20% of my resources. And that was my argument all the way - just that it doesn't eat up resources. In D&D it means that it isn't a suitable challenge.

BTW, you could argue that any creature is any EL challenge with your line of reasoning. Just add traps, favorable conditions, allies and stack it all against PCs with arbitrary ad hoc modifiers and you're set. Trapmaking isn't an exclusive skill for kobolds, you know. Long live Tuckers awakened rats!

And I don't really buy that CR3 traps are such a dangerous things. Even though I was told to not bring it up anymore, I still have to remind that my 11th level cleric can easily walk through most traps (at least of CR3) without expending resources. Much more difficult traps than those you could make with Traps +2.

 

[green slime]

I've just finished explaining that you can make CR3 traps with Craft (trap making) +2...

and of course, YOUR cleric is so much more superior, HE'D never miss a Reflex save DC 20...

and in the process of healing himself after falling into the pit trap he could just walk through, he doesn't expend ANY resources to heal himself, as he KNOWS there are only kobolds around here, and anyway, he autoregenerates hp.

 

[dcollins]

Given the Craft (Trapmaking) +2, the Kobolds can manufacture mechanical traps up to CR 3 (Song and Silence, page 30). The DC to craft these traps is DC 20, which can be made by taking 20.

You can't Take 20 on a Craft check because there is a penalty for failure -- ruined materials if failed by 5 or more (PHB p. 66).