Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[Numion]

I strongly disagree with you. They're quite a challenge for high level characters, if played by an intelligent GM.

Tricks, traps, ambushes, etc are all a part of the Kobold's repertois. Not using them is not using the monster effectively.

I'm not denying that a series of traps is a challenge. But the traps make it a challenge, not the kobolds direct actions. It could be human commoners (the VC) doing it. Thats why traps have their own CRs in D&D. The traps are the challenge, not your kobolds.

[BUOTE]
You (and I mean you personally) might as well go back to playing Diablo or the old "a bunch of disassociated monsters standing around in rooms for no reason" if you're not going to play the monsters up to their natural abilities.
[/QUOTE]

You (and I mean you personally) have an attitude problem. Feeling personally for imaginary creatures isn't good for you

 

[kigmatzomat]

You can design a challenging encounter with kobolds nearby or as part of the encounter, but by themselves the Tucker's Kobolds don't exist.

I disagree. I believe that while kobolds will almost never qualify as a "quite likley to kill a PC" EL=party level+3 for anything more than 10th level characters, they should present an EL=party level up to close to 18th level.

I never read the Tucker's Kobolds article; I applied VC tactics to kobolds on my own about 10 years ago and did major amounts of abuse to a party. As long as they didn't go off alone they weren't likely to be killed or even maimed but it was slow, tortuous going. I don't think 3e has changed that.

I will admit that if you use those kobolds as the focus of a campaign more than twice the players will likely rend you limb from limb as it is the most painful series of encounters can imagine. It takes forever to kill a few hundred kobolds in their warrens. Spells never catch more than dozen and you just spend so much time chasing them. Even cloudkills fail to do that much damage if your warrens have air shafts as the cloud sinks into the lowest level (likely the sewer).

I think this is the best high-level kobold encounter concept I've had the pleasure of reading. Face it, beyond 8th level, the odds of a kobold having antyhing the party wants that they can't locate object/ divine/ scry/ teleport/ astral jaunt/ charm to acquire are pretty low. And with time the party can simply flatten the area with move earths and summoned beasties. But this, this is a good idea. The PCs are backed against a wall and darned if that wall isn't infested with angry kobolds.

Of course, as a GM I'd have an easy out for thinking people: have the PCs offer to pay the kobolds to stay in the castle. Imagine that ravening horde's surprise when 60-odd commoners and half-dozen heroes get a 400-kobold reinforcement. Might even develop some nifty storylines as the commoners and kobolds establish some degree of interaction.

But then I'm a weirdo.

 

[Numion]

One should also remember that overcoming a challenge in 3e doesn't mean that the PCs have to kill or even confront every last one of the Kobolds - they have to just somehow deal with them.

Keeping that in mind I still don't see the challenge here. The kobolds can't even hit the PCs, and PCs as sure as hell can avoid them, either with their superior skills or magic.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Keeping that in mind I still don't see the challenge here. The kobolds can't even hit the PCs, and PCs as sure as hell can avoid them, either with their superior skills or magic.

For 13th level characters, which I think was the concept, I don't see their AC's being classified as "unhittable." Rare, yes, but not unhittable. The steady plinking of kobolds should take an irritating toll upon the front-runners.

"Six bolts smack into your armor."
"Again?"
"Yes, but your chain mail stops all but one. Take 3 points of damage. Again."
"Sigh."

Second, I don't see much magic beyond invisibility allowing the PCs to avoid the kobolds and still achieve their objective of driving the kobolds out of the castle. Wraithform will give the mage some defense and let him still drop his spells, but he'll likely run out of spells before running out of kobolds. And at that point it's still qualified as "an encounter" since roughly one fourth of the party dumped their resources.

Skill? Without 3.5's "Hide in Plain Sight" It's going to be plenty tough a rogue to sneak through a 3'x3' tunnel without being spotted, no matter the skill level. (unless it's a Small rogue) I'd probably drop a -8 circumstance penalty at the minimum. They might not be heard but their allies will likely make enough noise to make it moderately moot. And I hope the party has darkvisions all around or that sneaking's totally moot. Of course, burning that many darkvisions go a long way to making this take enough resources to be "an encounter."

You should also remember that kobolds have a hide of +8, meaning that some of them are fairly likely to stay hidden from the party giving them plenty of surprise shots.

 

[green slime]

Given that a first level sorcerer has access to such a handy little spell as true strike, and given that a roll of "20" is always a hit, no the kobolds are never going to damage the PCs...

 

[Bauglir]

Given that a first level sorcerer has access to such a handy little spell as true strike, and given that a roll of "20" is always a hit, no the kobolds are never going to damage the PCs...

But a basic kobold doesn't have access to true strike. It becomes less about the kobolds and more about the class levels..

Every single "make them a challenge" idea I have ever seen for reams of low level monsters revolves around giving them something special, or adding class levels everywhere, or setting up the situation to impede players in some way (such as the warrens).

All of this is fine of course, but I think Numion's point still stands that the kobolds in and of themselves don't really present the challenge.

 

[Darklone]

The class levels are usually included into the discussion because we talk about your average 400 kobolds tribe from the MM... Which includes IIRC one lvl8-9 sorcerer, some apprentices lvl1-4 sorcerer, some fighters and some rogues.
Plus perhaps one or two low level clerics/adepts.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Originally posted by Bauglir
But a basic kobold doesn't have access to true strike. It becomes less about the kobolds and more about the class levels..

But it's not giving them something they don't already have. Their MM description says if you have X many kobolds, Y number of them will be Sorcerors, Fighters, Rogues, etc. Don't you think they included those notes with an eye towards just these sorts of encounters?

Backpedal, deny, ignore as much as you want but everyone who says "they're a joke" admit that it would eat up resources - spells, potions, charges from fireball wands, etc. And that sort of resource depletion is the basis for the CR of 13, not their threat in terms of potentially fatal damage to a PC. Those lost resources can soften a party up for other encounters, hell, even retreating just to get away from the nuisance of the kobolds is still considered a retreat.

Resources used are resources used - be the threat a trap, 400 kobolds, a red dragon or whatnot. There's a lot I don't like about the CR system, but this isn't part of that.

- Ma'at

 

[green slime]

I think Bauglir is saying that he uses a d12 when rolling to see if Kobolds hit...

Its pretty hard to roll "20" on that d12...

 

[Bauglir]

Sure no problem. A tribe that size would have shamans etc. But what I'm saying is that the few with class levels will make up the vast majority of the challenge. The unclassed kobolds might as well be a load of illusions, for all the difference they will make. As for consuming resources, well the mass of kobolds that need to roll a 20 to do 3 points of damage will consume resources in the form of aoe spells for the sheer practicality of wiping out that many numbers.

The one kobold at the back though, hasted & lobbing 2 8d6 fireballs every round, with 20 more behind him volleying magic missiles. They pose an actual *threat* to the party, not because they are kobolds, but because they have class levels. (78 average damage in a round from them could obliterate many 13th level wizards)

You could just as easily make a balanced 13th level party of classed kobolds, which would certainly present a challenge, but which would no more prove that basic kobolds are a challenge to a high level party.

Use up resources? Yes
Be a threat? No

Which I think was the original intent; to provide an annoyance, not to kill party members..