Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[mmu1]

(...)
I recommend checking out a book on Vietnam from the library, particularly one addressing the tunnel rats. Replace "AK-47" with "Lt. Crossbow" and "VC" with "Kobold" and you'll do fine. [/B]

So why exactly are the PCs going into those tunnels for?

Is it to kill some specific person, or retrieve some object? If yes, then the "Scry and Teleport" method of solving the problem still works.

If they're there just to eliminate the kobolds, and don't have to do it in one day, they can easily wreck the place bit by bit without exposing themselves to attack...

Either they have a goal, in which case, getting to it is easy, or they don't, and you shouldn't expect them to waste their time going through some useless warren.

And last time I checked, "tunnel rats" didn't have access to Darkvision, Improved Invisibility, Fly, Stoneskin... Cast those on a rogue (along with maybe Reduce, if the tunnels are tight) and watch the kobolds start to die horribly.

All of that assuming that you have no problem with metagaming things to death and making your monsters live in places that have no functional purpose besides "screw with the PCs".

 

[green slime]

mmu1,

Perhaps you haven't been reading the thread from the beginning

The PCs want into the fort which is unbeknowst to them taken over by Kobolds. The PCs want to get into the fort, because they are FLEEING from an enemy tribe, and are protecting innocent others. They can't just hide 60 people in the fort while they chase off after the kobolds. They can't hide the others in the Wilderness either. Because then the ENEMY, which is probably interested in wiping out the stragglers, may just come along. Wouldn't the PCs like that?

Now how long they have been in the fort is a matter for conjecture. Given that they have had time to set up defenses, and a tunnel system, the job of the PCs is very difficult

The reason they end up chasing the kobolds is because the Kobolds do not like being evicted, and harry the PCs. Hoping not to win a battle, but hastle the PCs so much they leave.

"Scry, Teleport and Slaughter BBEG" while a beloved tactic of some teams of PCs, doesn't always work. If it always does in your game, fine. I prefer to challenge the PCs, and make them work for their living. You just want High Level PCs to slaughter everything. A simple counter to STSB is the smokey interior. You can’t identify the room clearly enough. Which makes teleporting in a hazardous affair.

BTW, I notice you are using a large number of resources to tackle these "pests", WHICH IS THE POINT!!! The idea isn't "They can slaughter the PCs mwahahahahaha" The idea is "We can cause them to spend so much effort that it isn't really worth their time. IF 400 kobolds CAN'T do this, then their would be NO kobolds alive. SO much for "metagaming" out the wazoo. It would be easier, much easier for these players to create a brand new fort!!

CR13 = 20% of the resources of a 13th level party!

You've mentioned Scry, Teleport, Cloudkill x2, Improved Inivisibility, Darkness (not just on one PC, I assume), Stoneskin (How much did that spell cost again? That is far more than they'll earn on this adventure!), Fly…

Assume 24 Int. A 13th level specialist wizard has: 3 7th, 4 6th, 5 5th level spells per day.

20% of that is 1 7th, 1 5th and 1 5th level spell…
You’d spent 3 5th level spells (Teleport, 2x Cloudkill) A whole bunch of buffs, just to eradicate 400 kobolds? And it can’t be done in a single day? So they are also causing the party to use another precious resource, TIME…

I assume the other players wouldn’t just wander around without their buffs up in a war zone either.

A third thing is; How in the metagaming context of wazoo, do the players KNOW they are only facing kobolds?? The element of the unknown preys on the mind of the players. Clever illusions and mock ups cause the PCs initial concern, and can be used efficiently to sow confusion.

Seems to me like it might just be a CR 13 encounter. Although it is much more difficult to gauge, given the fact that it is a running battle

Finally: If you cannot challenge PCs with this encounter, then you are lacking in imagination.

 

[mmu1]

mmu1,

Perhaps you haven't been reading the thread from the beginning

I think you've decided to take my comments a little too personally... Regardless, while you might be right about the players being "Challenged" by the encounter in terms of CR, resources, and time wasted, it's not exactly what I have in mind when talking about a "challenging encounter". Boring the players half to death with kobolds is what most of those schemes sound like to me, but hey...

 

[Chimera]

Hardly seems like boring them to death to me.

400 Kobolds (with leaders) is a formidable enemy. You don't just buff up and walk out to slaughter them because they won't be there when you arrive.

And if they know that the party members are too tough to deal with but they're guarding commoners, then all the Kobolds have to do is infiltrate - via tunnels, crawling over the walls, sneaking in the back door, whatever, one or two at a time, around the clock for days. As was said above, the Ranger or Rogue can't be awake 24 hours a day and everywhere at once.

This afternoon they catch Farmer Bob stepping out to relieve himself. In the evening one of them wounds Mary the cook in the kitchen before being killed ("we're not safe anywhere!"). An hour later a hail of bolts come flying through the window, narrowly missing Ed. And all night long, there are continuous "strike and fade away" attacks that last only until the party responds, giving them no rest and thus, no spells the next day.

A few days later, you have a fort full of tired, angry, paranoid people, several dead and many more wounded. The morale of those commoners is shot and they blame YOU.

So what if they lose half of their number in the process. They're Kobolds. They'll just breed more. The important part is that you are gone and they control the fort (as noted above).

 

[Numion]

A few days later, you have a fort full of tired, angry, paranoid people, several dead and many more wounded. The morale of those commoners is shot and they blame YOU.

So, 400 kobolds are a big challenge vs. 60 commoners. Doesn't surprise me in the least. But I'd still say they aren't much of a challenge to mid-to-high level PCs. Sure I'd be annoyed by the VC tunnel system, but I'd be annoyed by just that: the friggin' tunnel maze. Not the occassional X-Bow bolt that misses me / does 4 pts. of damage. No wait, it wouldn't hit me, because I wouldn't be ambushed by kobolds with hide +8, and I'd surprise them

They might very well kill all the commoners. But that has little to do with ELs or CRs.

 

[Darklone]

Cave ins are a good way to deal a lot of damage to high level chars. My kobolds usually had a huge tunnel system made for small creatures... with some entrances for big-uns. Traps that are triggered by weight and/or size work wonderfully for them, cave ins by kobold guards may easily hurt even high level chars.
(Send the rogues after them!)

 

[Numion]

Cave ins are a good way to deal a lot of damage to high level chars. My kobolds usually had a huge tunnel system made for small creatures... with some entrances for big-uns. Traps that are triggered by weight and/or size work wonderfully for them, cave ins by kobold guards may easily hurt even high level chars.
(Send the rogues after them!)

Well yeah, a cave in can be bad news. But it's not about the Kobolds then, is it really?

 

[Darklone]

I would expect especially kobolds to use exactly these things. They are easy and effective. Why rely on magical gimmicks? The big folk can do that better.

 

[Numion]

I would expect especially kobolds to use exactly these things. They are easy and effective. Why rely on magical gimmicks? The big folk can do that better.

Of course. Just trying to say that every once in a while these kind of threads show up and people try to convince that kobolds are useful and challenging vs. high-level groups, but then in fact presents a different challenge to be used vs. the PCs.

First its traps instead of kobolds, then its kobolds vs. commoners instead of PCs, then its kobolds with lots of class levels, allied red dragons .. you get the picture?

You can design a challenging encounter with kobolds nearby or as part of the encounter, but by themselves the Tucker's Kobolds don't exist.

 

[Chimera]

So, 400 kobolds are a big challenge vs. 60 commoners. Doesn't surprise me in the least. But I'd still say they aren't much of a challenge to mid-to-high level PCs. Sure I'd be annoyed by the VC tunnel system, but I'd be annoyed by just that: the friggin' tunnel maze. Not the occassional X-Bow bolt that misses me / does 4 pts. of damage. No wait, it wouldn't hit me, because I wouldn't be ambushed by kobolds with hide +8, and I'd surprise them

They might very well kill all the commoners. But that has little to do with ELs or CRs.

I strongly disagree with you. They're quite a challenge for high level characters, if played by an intelligent GM.

Tricks, traps, ambushes, etc are all a part of the Kobold's repertois. Not using them is not using the monster effectively.

You (and I mean you personally) might as well go back to playing Diablo or the old "a bunch of disassociated monsters standing around in rooms for no reason" if you're not going to play the monsters up to their natural abilities.

Oh, and stop playing the old "my character is so good he'd never fall for this" gambit. This isn't about your character and your assumptions are not valid outside of your own game.