Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[green slime]

20% of resources is still 20% of resources. Whether it is a death in the party or just a lot of spells to disperse what should be an insignificant threat the system doesn't differentiate.

I'm convinced the Kobolds can make life a royal pain in the butt for the PCs, from shear numbers, and smart tactics.

Of course if you just throw them all bunched up on one big field with a single trap, then there isn't much gonna stop the PCs.

I'm convinced I could get 4 13th level PCs to leave the fortress, if I was DM. Over time, the hastle will be more than they will want to deal with. The trick is, Kobolds never, ever, want a direct confrontation.

Sure you can say the Rogue/Ranger has superlative Spot/Listen abilities. But that one character or two can't be everywhere, and awake all the time.

Sure you could set Guards and Wards, and similar. But, being on the defensive, forced to shelter 60 odd NPCs, they are in for a rough time.

 

[Darklone]

Tried to find the old thread where someone asked for traps and tricks against his lvl15 PCs with a full tribe of kobolds on their home turf (400 kobolds plus one lvl8 sorcerer, some fighters and apprentices)... There have been a lot of nice ideas and the players finally withdrew

 

[mmu1]

The problem with every single one of those "give me 400 kobolds and I'll make the high-level characters cry in fear" scenarios I've ever seen is that they're never about the kobolds.

You don't really need 400 kobolds if you're going to fill a place with traps, or use thousands of gp worth of poison, or of one-shot magical items. If you do it that way, it's not the CR 1/6 kobolds you're beating your characters with, but the high CR traps and special equipment - ordinary kobolds are still no threat to a high-level party. Everyone who thinks they can challenge a party with 400 kobolds because they're just so creative are kidding themselves...

My advice, use much fewer kobolds but with character levels, and make this a proper fight.

 

[green slime]

The problem with every single one of those "give me 400 kobolds and I'll make the high-level characters cry in fear" scenarios I've ever seen is that they're never about the kobolds.

You don't really need 400 kobolds if you're going to fill a place with traps, or use thousands of gp worth of poison, or of one-shot magical items. If you do it that way, it's not the CR 1/6 kobolds you're beating your characters with, but the high CR traps and special equipment - ordinary kobolds are still no threat to a high-level party. Everyone who thinks they can challenge a party with 400 kobolds because they're just so creative are kidding themselves...

My advice, use much fewer kobolds but with character levels, and make this a proper fight.

Crap.

Who mentioned copious amounts of poison? Who said the place was "filled" with traps. You don't need to "fill" the place with traps, just the odd trap. To catch them unawares, or more likely one of the NPCs. I never mentioned one-shot magical items in this scenario. However, having a FEW is not completely beyond belief, neither is it beyond belief that they should have access to a FEW alchemical substances, in minor quantities. Used well these can cause much havoc.

It isn't ALL about straight-up fighting power. If it was, you wouldn't see guerilla warfare anywhere. That is the thing. You use the strength (numbers) of the kobolds against the few but powerful. You can question whether who wins or not (given the expected casualty rate amongst kobolds), but in the long run, all what counts is who controls the fort at the end of the day.

Like cockroaches.

If you create the feeling amongst the PCs that they are facing an endless horde, that the kobolds can attack when they feel like, that the PCs are under siege, and that it is requires more effort to stay than to find a different place, then the Kobolds "win" regardless of losses.

Given that the PCs have to protect their 3 score homeless people, they can't afford to leave them to go on Search and Destroy missions.

Why is straight-up fighting the ONLY way to wage a war?

In fact given that they will have been evicted by the nasty PCs, why don't the kobolds seek assistance from the Enemy Human tribe?

 

[mmu1]

Crap.

Who mentioned copious amounts of poison? Who said the place was "filled" with traps. You don't need to "fill" the place with traps, just the odd trap. To catch them unawares, or more likely one of the NPCs. I never mentioned one-shot magical items in this scenario. However, having a FEW is not completely beyond belief, neither is it beyond belief that they should have access to a FEW alchemical substances, in minor quantities. Used well these can cause much havoc.

It isn't ALL about straight-up fighting power. If it was, you wouldn't see guerilla warfare anywhere. That is the thing. You use the strength (numbers) of the kobolds against the few but powerful. You can question whether who wins or not (given the expected casualty rate amongst kobolds), but in the long run, all what counts is who controls the fort at the end of the day.

Like cockroaches.

If you create the feeling amongst the PCs that they are facing an endless horde, that the kobolds can attack when they feel like, that the PCs are under siege, and that it is requires more effort to stay than to find a different place, then the Kobolds "win" regardless of losses.

Given that the PCs have to protect their 3 score homeless people, they can't afford to leave them to go on Search and Destroy missions.

Why is straight-up fighting the ONLY way to wage a war?

In fact given that they will have been evicted by the nasty PCs, why don't the kobolds seek assistance from the Enemy Human tribe?

Please... This sort of thing only works if the players are either incompetent, or don't realize what they can do with the power at their disposal. A party of 13th (or 10th) level characters can play the hit-and-run game much better than a tribe of 400 kobolds. If a 10th level ranger goes out of his way to put the commoners and warriors in a safe spot, the kobolds will never find them - who said anything about doing something stupid like actually dragging them into the kobold dungeon?

And then, what exactly is going to stop them from using scrying and divination to just Teleport into the quarters of whoever is running the show and taking him out? How hard is it going to be to take a few kobolds prisoner, charm/dominate them and get exact information about the layout and the traps? Ruin tunnels with Stoneshape and Rock to Mud, Dimension Door while invisible and blast the crap out of the "ambushers", etc. - and how are the kobolds (without higher level characters, or one-shot items - which is exactly what makes this kind of thing workable) even going to spot an invisible party that's flying to avoid falling into pits?

That's if the players are nice enough not to cast a couple of Cloudkills at the first sign of resistance, seal the exit, and come back a day later to rinse and repeat...

Yeah, I'm sure you can make the kobolds give the players hell with all the advantages in terms of information a DM has, or if you invent some specific reason to force them to deal with the kobolds on your terms... But if you just play the game, and your players aren't fools, they're not going to break a sweat.

And incidentally, the reason guerilla warfare works is because if some lowly shmuck with an AK-47 hits you, he'll kill you just as dead regardless of how good a soldier you are, and how many laser-guided bombs your army has - and it's actually possible to hide and spring and ambush, because in real life people don't have +15 or +20 to spot.

Which, needless to say, is not how thigns work in D&D, at least not after 2nd or 3rd level.

 

[Henry]

...And we're talking some pretty biga$$ magical state of the art traps, to which the Kobolds wouldn't have access to anyway.

Actually, Kobolds are one of the few Monster Manual Denizens who have both ranks in Craft (Trapmaking), and whose Favored Class is Sorcerer. If there were any race who were likely to have access to magical traps, according to the DMG, it would be Kobolds...


With regards to tactics, I agree with Green Slime - Kobolds will rarely do a stand-up fight, when they can make use of cover, altitude, and craftiness. Someone recently posted a link about Viet Cong who used tunnels to hide in and make strikes from, and the secret compartments they used, the defenses they had against poison gas, bomb attacks, etc. (I wish I remembered the name of the location in Vietnam, it was a mountain/hill range with lots of clay in the soil.) Kobolds could have fake entries into their burrows with traps in the bottom, air-tight doors to stop cloudkills, listening posts to detect approaching adventurers, internal wells that went down to the waterline, storerooms to outlast long seiges, secret doors that allow them to launch coutner-attacks, and countless other features that would make even a middle-level party (7th to 14th level) go absolutely nuts trying to root them out.

If OTOH, you are looking for foot-soldiers for an evil army, hobgoblins, orcs, Quaggoths or (my favorite) Girallons would make excellent foot troops that would sorely test the mettle of a high-level party.

 

[Numion]

Actually, Kobolds are one of the few Monster Manual Denizens who have both ranks in Craft (Trapmaking), and whose Favored Class is Sorcerer. If there were any race who were likely to have access to magical traps, according to the DMG, it would be Kobolds...

Maybe we would need a bit more information about the situation. Those traps are very expensive, and you'd need very many traps to wear out a cautious group. There's a reason for traps capping at CR 10. Even then though its not the kobolds but the traps that do it. I don't think that the 8th (or whatever) level kobold leader has money for more than just few magical traps.

With regards to tactics, I agree with Green Slime - Kobolds will rarely do a stand-up fight, when they can make use of cover, altitude, and craftiness. Someone recently posted a link about Viet Cong who used tunnels to hide in and make strikes from, and the secret compartments they used, the defenses they had against poison gas, bomb attacks, etc. (I wish I remembered the name of the location in Vietnam, it was a mountain/hill range with lots of clay in the soil.) Kobolds could have fake entries into their burrows with traps in the bottom, air-tight doors to stop cloudkills, listening posts to detect approaching adventurers, internal wells that went down to the waterline, storerooms to outlast long seiges, secret doors that allow them to launch coutner-attacks, and countless other features that would make even a middle-level party (7th to 14th level) go absolutely nuts trying to root them out.

Incidentally, my cleric hasn't fallen in pits since he got Air Walk spell

It's only a matter of minutes for 13th level PCs to find the kobolds leader and off him. A little divination and a little teleport magic. Or a little charm spell and a few questions. Or a bluff or intimidate of +20. Or a speak with dead spell. Or whatever, really.

If OTOH, you are looking for foot-soldiers for an evil army, hobgoblins, orcs, Quaggoths or (my favorite) Girallons would make excellent foot troops that would sorely test the mettle of a high-level party.

Girallons are bad news. Makes my cleric think of antilife shell even I've got plenty of levels.

 

[Darklone]

Kobold guerilla:
Lvl1 sorcerer and True Strike and a light crossbow at longest possible range

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Bah. 400 kobolds wouldn't line up in nice single-file ranks waiting to be cleaved. They'd take advantage of terrain, ambush, and surprise, and make you come to them through a series of traps.

Besides, a large number of them will be sorcerors. I'd imagine 400 simultaneous magic missles could take down just about anyone

 

[kigmatzomat]

Maybe we would need a bit more information about the situation. Those traps are very expensive, and you'd need very many traps to wear out a cautious group.

Don't use the expensive traps. Matter of fact, don't think of the traps as the weapon; they're herding systems. They slow the PCs down and put them into places of the Kobold's choosing. Someone brought up the Viet Cong and that is really the attitude you want to have. Feral cunning with a finite amount of technical/mystical resources but lots of raw muscle power. Imagine how much work 400 kobolds who've never heard of OSHA or the 40-hour work week can accomplish.

First thing is that all tunnels will be kobold-sized and most of the time only big enough for one or two kobolds to be side by side. All medium creatures are immediately disadvantaged; Movement speeds are reduced from crawling and in some tight-for-a-kobold-places reflex saves may not be possible. Longbows and all reach weapons should be useless. It also reduces the amount of firepower the PCs can bring to bear since only two or maybe three PCs can act on the kobolds. Killing kobolds will even make life difficult because it reduces the amount of maneuvering space by that much.

Second, lots of turns. There will be no long lines of sight. It should be as twisty as koboldly possible and be designed for 3-dimensional confusion, meaning small ladders, drops, tunnels appearing at different elevations, etc. PCs should have great trouble navigating.

Junctions will be the only open area and will be no bigger than absolutely necessary, at most 10x10, and will also act as quarters/storage for the kobolds. Junctions should always have at least 4 doors, that way the kobolds can outnumber the invaders. With 3 doors out, 1 door in and the tight confines, the Kobolds should outnumber the PCs by 3:1 at each turn. Whatever items happen to be in the junction (crude crates, sacks, filthy straw on the floor) will be cover to the kobolds. PCs should also constantly fear being flanked as it will be almost impossible to completely clear out the warren.

The interconnected tunnels are also handy at controlling spells. Bursts and rays will be absorbed by the walls; emanations & the like could easily work their way back to the party.

Traps will be simplistic. Punji sticks, concealed caltrops, murder holes, boiling oil, false floors, scorpions, snakes, hungry rats, and wasps nests. They won't even be "automatic" traps as much as remote triggered by a lookout. Lots of spiked wood panels that drop from the ceiling, deadfalls so hallways collapse, etc.

And the traps won't be to do damage, not really. The trap will keep the party where the kobolds want them for a bit. IIRC, dire badgers can burrow so when the party feels safe the badgers will burst in from the sides and begin sucking blood. Maybe the kobolds will build smokey fires at both ends of the tunnel the PCs are trapped in. Or just lead them to the very bottom of the warren and then break open a wall to a well so that a thousand gallons of water (or maybe sewage) drowns them.

The best part of kobolds is that they operate with little chain of command. They don't know what radio is and they vary rarely use runners to carry out orders. Their plans are simple (Shoot'n scoot) but effective and you can't take out the army's brain because they don't have one they can't live without for a while. Heck, most of them wouldn't even know about it if you did so what's the point?

This should turn into a bloody, painful exercise where the party is nickel & dimed to death. Not that they'll likely die, but they won't exactly have a "win".

I recommend checking out a book on Vietnam from the library, particularly one addressing the tunnel rats. Replace "AK-47" with "Lt. Crossbow" and "VC" with "Kobold" and you'll do fine.