Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[Hypersmurf]

So I guess the next question is "What is the CR of 400 Shadows?"

They're just factored into your CR as a 12th level cleric

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

13th level mage with AC 17? Alrighty then... you're stacking things to the kobolds favor. At this point it seems that it's not the traps, the pet dragons, the dire weasels, the higher level bosses .. it's just the DM bent on screwing his players.



But the PCs don't have to stay there. They can choose when to battle. And if you were totally honest DM, I'd teach the commoners to use similar tactics as the kobolds. Kobolds can't see the humans when they're standing behind a tree, or the humans dig their own tunnels (they dig faster because they're stronger) .. etc.



Yeah right. You're somehow assuming that more info on the enemy (ie PCs know they're against kobolds) would somehow negatively affect their performance? You assume wrong. PCs would actually device their own tactics to counter or better yet just ignore the kobolds. PCs never reach 13th level if they act like dumbasses you expect to be.

BTW, digging tunnels isn't fast. You can't do it at all in some places. As far as earth goes Vietnam was optimal.

ARGHH!!!!

HE (LuYangShih) claimed HIS mage ONLY needed protection from Arrows, and fly... NOT ME!!!!! READ what is posted!!!!!!!!!!!!! THis is more about POSTERS wanting to not READ than about what kobolds can and cannot do. I pointed out, the fallacy of those assumptions, and now it is the DM screwing over the player cause his player doesn't have any better protections up and running?!?!?!? WTF???????

Sure the humans can, BUT it is the HOME turf of the kobolds, and 40 of the humans are noncombatants... The kobolds AREN'T digging NEW trenches/tunnels, they are using the ones they have prepared over the past two-three YEARS! Please! Cut the DM SOME slack?!? What do think I have been saying? That they have a tunnel-dugger similar to what laid the tunnel underneath the English Channel?!? Come on, you are just being argumentative! Of course the NPCs can start using tactics. But if it takes 5 kobolds to kill an NPC... You end up with no NPCs and 100 kobolds...And pretty much a failure on the story plot, so no XP reward for story there...

My experience is that a large number of players can get very cocky about the ability of their high level characters, so much so that they drastically underestimate the seriousness of the situation, until it is far too late, then they go all wussy-eyed and claim "but how was I to know?" You weren't. First rule of survival is ALWAYS be careful. NEVER take things at face value. ALWAYS assume the DM is a rat-bastard.

If I was playing in such a game, as a wizard, I wouldn't unleash all my fire power at these wimps, because I'd be paranoid that the DM had something bigger waiting around the corner. I'd be trying to solve this problem with non-violent means... You don't unleash the A-bomb unless you really really have to

Which is why I ask "How do the PCs now that this is the only encounter for the day, that worse things aren't to come, and how do they plan for those events? MOST posters so far proclaiming "My Bad_AR$3 wizard would just Nuke the wimps to Kingdom come!" just have no idea what the DM has planned... And are explicitly saying "My character is as dumb as a rock and deserves what ever fate befalls him"

Great, ignore the kobolds, fly away over the moon, I don't care. But it DOES leave the kobolds in possession of the fort....

I've even suggested alternative strategies for players, but there are those that JUST want to take a beating.

 

[green slime]

I figure if you know there's a lair of kobolds about, there's no need to go wasting resources beyond a 150gp black opal and one peasant.

As long as you have a 12th level non-good cleric.

Step one: kill the peasant. You're probably doing him a favour, 'cos being a peasant sucks anyway. And the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one...

Step two: Cast Create Undead to make a Shadow.

Step three: Command him with a turn attempt.

Step four: Send him out to find kobolds.

Incorporeal, can't be hit except by magic, immune to all the kobolds' sneaky traps and dire weasels. Can sneak around pretty much unseen until it finds some sleeping kobolds.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

By the time the kobold sorcerers know what's going on, half of the tribe are shadows under the control of shadows under the control of the shadow that's under your control.

And hundreds of kobold shadows waiting to do your bidding is worth one lousy peasant and an opal any day.

-Hyp.

Another good move.

For Evil players...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Another good move.

For Evil players...

Actually, apart from the sacrificing a peasant bit, you only need a non-good cleric who channels negative energy. Cleric of Wee Jas would fit, for example.

And any dead humanoid would suffice for the first Shadow. You don't have to put some poor farmer out of his misery.

-Hyp.

 

[Skinwalker]

And any dead humanoid would suffice for the first Shadow. You don't have to put some poor farmer out of his misery.
-Hyp.

Hmmm...I can picture a group I used to run simply telling one of their NPCs it was time to "take one for the team."

 

[green slime]

Actually, apart from the sacrificing a peasant bit, you only need a non-good cleric who channels negative energy. Cleric of Wee Jas would fit, for example.

And any dead humanoid would suffice for the first Shadow. You don't have to put some poor farmer out of his misery.

-Hyp.

True, true....

But those kind of clerics aren't TERRIBLY popular in many parties. For some reason the INability to spontaneously cast Healing spells is regarded as more than a minor drawback...

And Wee Jas would be an excellent choice for such a Cleric. (My favourite Greyhawk divinity!)

 

[Bauglir]

So, we can ascertain, that there was a noise, that it came from that direction, and that it was approxiamately that far away.

But as we've established we can't do it easily with any precision.

And then you throw the grenade.

Then you blindly lob the grenade at a location you can't even see. Ever played one of those tank commander games, where you select elevation and power and try and lob a shot to a target? It's not easy, and in those you can see where you're aiming.

Splash damage MAY occur, according to how accurate the guess and throw was.

It MAY occur, but it very probably won't.

I never suggested it was going to be pinpoint accurate. I never said all 400 kobolds were armed with this stuff, I never said it was going to cause humungous amounts of damage. The object is TO HARRY!!!

Nor did I. I said EVEN IF all 400 of them had bombs they still wouldn't do much, meaning to imply that since they won't all have bombs they will do less than diddly. A 1 in 400 chance of doing 2d6 damage is not very harrying.

Besides I said back on page 1 or 2 that they could harry and consume resources, but until you add external influences they are not an actual threat

And it is a valid tactic for a pathetic little kobold trying to defend its lair!

Indeed it is, but like any tactic the kobolds use it will fall flat on its face the moment the dice start rolling.

I think if this situation were to roll out IMC, after a few failed attacks it would be the kobolds starting negotiations, not the players.

Hyp: The usual evil genius we've come to expect from you

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp: The usual evil genius we've come to expect from you

Boy, you like that, you'll love Slaad Farming...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmmm...I can picture a group I used to run simply telling one of their NPCs it was time to "take one for the team."

Heh!

-Hyp.

 

[mmu1]

Like I said before, there's a big difference between the claim that the Kobolds make for a CR 13 encounter, and that you can really challenge the players by using Kobolds.

I think most of the "anti-Tucker" people around here have an issue with the latter. It might be an "appropriate challenge" as the books define it, but it is not a challenging encounter.

Another issue is that it's not meaningful to say that an encounter of CR=Party Level is challenging if the encounter is not the part of a series, and the fact your resources have been reduced isn't going to come into play.
If the players go to the fort, attack the kobold warrens with Disintegrate, Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, Rock to Mud and Cloudkill, Charm or Dominate a prisoner for questioning, then move back to the camp and use either skill or magic to cover their tracks and set it up so that they can slaughter any kobolds unlucky enough to actually find them, have a good night's sleep, and wake up the next day ready to do it again, do you really think they just had an "encounter" of any particular CR?

Yes, I'm sure you can say that any number of things (like random encounters) can happen to disturb their rest, but that won't be the kobolds' doing. The kobolds only become a "threat" when the environment surrounding the fort is so dangerous the players are at risk just for being there, and can't rest.