Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[AuraSeer]

A Balor's summoning ability is only usable once per day, summons a single glabrezu, and only lasts for an hour. Therefore having 20 glabrezu is outside the standard abilities of a balor.

By the statblock, right. The poster who mentioned the 20 glabrezu was making a point about monsters' non-stat advantages.

Tuckerites say the kobolds are dangerous because of their traps and their environment, even though the statblock doesn't state that they are always encountered near traps. Similarly, a balor (as the general of a fiend army) might be encountered with few dozen glabrezu bodyguards, though that is not explicitly part of his stats, powers, or CR. The point is, in these situations neither the kobolds nor the balor is the major component of the EL.

 

[Skinwalker]

I thought a character's (or monster's) EL was supposed to consider available resources. If the kobolds all have Craft (Trapmaking) as a skill, then traps would certainly be a part of their resources.

 

[AuraSeer]

I thought a character's (or monster's) EL was supposed to consider available resources. If the kobolds all have Craft (Trapmaking) as a skill, then traps would certainly be a part of their resources.

That's true only if they have the raw materials available, and they spend the time to construct them.

A character with ranks in Craft (Armorer) does not automatically get a free suit of plate armor. He might be able to make such a suit for himself, but only if he has tools, a smithy, and enough steel to start with.

 

[LokiDR]

Yes, it is. Kobolds have standard treasure (per the MM)... DMG p. 170 indicates that an EL 13 encounter should have 13,000 gp total on average. The proposal would be over that number, and leave nothing for any possible traps, leader magic items, and zero actual money in the treasure room. (In fact, only classed NPCs are given any allowance for turning their treasure into gear, per DMG p. 171, but we can stipulate that for this discussion.)

13,000gp in alchemist fire is still enough to kill. Nothing in the treasure section states there must be wasted gold laying around for PCs to plunder. It has been stated that any "leaders" would be the CR of the encounter, so this group doesn't have any. So any money would be put into alchemist fire. My example assumes no other resources.

But you are right. If the kobolds can't buy items, use traps, or have any class levels they won't win. Gee, the PCs wouldn't win either if they didn't have those.

Furthermore, this is the kind of suggestion that on the one hand presumes the kobolds all get to attack at once, out of nowhere, at point blank range, with no chance of being spotted... and yet also dictates that the kobolds "not be clumped up" so as to not be vulnerable to area-of-effect spells. It's highly manipulative of the rules as written.

Manipulative? No, hole hiding vs 20 precasts + divinations is manipulative. This is as simple as the fight will ever get. It is not implosible either. 400 kobolds move and throw. If you don't think 400 kobolds can get complete cover in 90' diameter circle, you are mistaken. Even if they need to double move, you can't kill them all in a single round. All it takes is one kobold as bait.

I assume in this case that the kobalds all die in the end. This is a kamakazie charge. Fireballs fly, but you can't hit them all, nor can you throw enough fireballs per round to kill them all. If you throw several area-of-effect spells, I have still made you use them. You used up resorces because if you didn't you would die. That is the essence of an on-par CR encounter.

 

[LokiDR]

That's true only if they have the raw materials available, and they spend the time to construct them.

A character with ranks in Craft (Armorer) does not automatically get a free suit of plate armor. He might be able to make such a suit for himself, but only if he has tools, a smithy, and enough steel to start with.

Can you construct simple traps out of just what you find in a forest using simple tools? It is a staple of movies such as Robin Hood, so I don't think it is unreasonable.

 

[Skinwalker]

That's true only if they have the raw materials available, and they spend the time to construct them.

A character with ranks in Craft (Armorer) does not automatically get a free suit of plate armor. He might be able to make such a suit for himself, but only if he has tools, a smithy, and enough steel to start with.

But that is exactly the situation that several other people have gone to great lengths to describe...one in which the kobolds have taken time to fortify the area, using their skills and resources to do such. Yet they are being reamed for it.

As to the second part, I was specifically referring to them using their resources to build the traps. So far I haven't read any post in this thread where someone states the traps would just *poof* into existance.

 

[dcollins]

The point is, in these situations neither the kobolds nor the balor is the major component of the EL.

I totally agree. The person I was responding to asserted that "If he brings them in [20 glabrezu] using his Summon ability then no extra experience is granted. You may not like that, that is the way summon works."

 

[dcollins]

Nothing in the treasure section states there must be wasted gold laying around for PCs to plunder.

Kobolds have "standard" treasure. MM p. 12: "Treasures include coins, gold, and items. Creatures can have varying amounts of each, as follows. Standard: Roll once under each type of treasure's column on the appropriate row..." Note that DMG p. 170 only has rows for coins, goods (gems/art), and likely 1d6 minor magic items at EL 13.

DMG p. 171: "The gear that NPCs carry serves as the bulk of their treasure". No such allowance is made for non-NPCs, i.e., monsters listed with "standard" treasure from the MM.

So by the rules, yes, kobolds absolutely are supposed to have "gold laying around for PCs to plunder". Asserting that kobolds can take all their funds and transform them into warmaking devices is breaking the guidelines given in the kobolds' statblock.

This is as simple as the fight will ever get. It is not implosible either. 400 kobolds move and throw. If you don't think 400 kobolds can get complete cover in 90' diameter circle, you are mistaken.

400 kobolds sneaking up on 13th level PCs "not implosible [sic]"? I'm afraid that doesn't even warrant a dignified response.

 

[Skinwalker]

I'll have to remember that the next time my DM deviates in any way shape or form from the equipment specifically listed in the MM for any creature.

 

[AuraSeer]

Can you construct simple traps out of just what you find in a forest using simple tools? It is a staple of movies such as Robin Hood, so I don't think it is unreasonable.

Yes you can, but not well. When using natural materials, you can never really predict how the stuff will behave.

For instance, some spring-type traps can be made with bent saplings for springs. Some might be too green, applying excess force and making your trap fail to go off when triggered (or to go prematurely, or in the wrong direction). Another might be too brittle, causing it to snap during construction and remove some of your fingers.

When making dangerous things with unpredictable materials, an amateur has a good chance of killing himself before it goes off. And let's face it, with only a +2 bonus on the Craft skill, your average kobold is not exactly MacGyver.

Speaking of building stuff, where are these kobolds getting all that alchemist's fire? Even if a few unusual ones have ranks in Craft(Alchemy), it'll take an awfully long time to make thirteen thousand gp worth of the stuff. Buying it doesn't seem sensible either. Even if they have access to a large city, it stretches credibility to think that hundreds of gallons of the stuff will be available all at once.