Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[LokiDR]

Kobolds have "standard" treasure. MM p. 12: "Treasures include coins, gold, and items. Creatures can have varying amounts of each, as follows. Standard: Roll once under each type of treasure's column on the appropriate row..." Note that DMG p. 170 only has rows for coins, goods (gems/art), and likely 1d6 minor magic items at EL 13.

DMG p. 171: "The gear that NPCs carry serves as the bulk of their treasure". No such allowance is made for non-NPCs, i.e., monsters listed with "standard" treasure from the MM.

So by the rules, yes, kobolds absolutely are supposed to have "gold laying around for PCs to plunder". Asserting that kobolds can take all their funds and transform them into warmaking devices is breaking the guidelines given in the kobolds' statblock.

If D&D to you is only a series of encounter table and random treasure charts, you should stick to computer gaming. It is far more efficent.

There is no way any group of low level creatures can add up to something more than they are without materials, setup, equipment and levels. Armies are pointless under your view. The PCs could run through them all day and not even blink, no matter their number or tatics. That is a rather skewed point of view.

As for your rules arguement, I ask if a kobold is sentient. If they are, then they must be NPCs. Alchemist fire is gear to adventures. So the alchemist fire is perfectly valid for the kobalds. Seems simple to me, unless you want to argue more pointless semantics.

400 kobolds sneaking up on 13th level PCs "not implosible [sic]"? I'm afraid that doesn't even warrant a dignified response.

Did you read that section? First of all, my example was about an ambush. It is not "implausible" at all. They just need to stay entirely out of sight. Full cover = no need for hide. 1 kobald in full view to scream to set off the ambush. Simple.

If you want to take the one-upmanship out of this encounter, just assume both parties are surprized and fairly near each other. None of this 20 precasts, tunnels, divinations and traps. Pure, simple, combat. In that case, you will see the kobalds are a challenge on par with a CR of 13. Apply situational modifiers (both pro and con) after that.

 

[LokiDR]

Yes you can, but not well. When using natural materials, you can never really predict how the stuff will behave.

So, it is not possible to create basic goods like a bow out of a forest given tools?

For instance, some spring-type traps can be made with bent saplings for springs. Some might be too green, applying excess force and making your trap fail to go off when triggered (or to go prematurely, or in the wrong direction). Another might be too brittle, causing it to snap during construction and remove some of your fingers.

The tribe can afford to lose a few fingers, between them The point would be to gather the right materials.

When making dangerous things with unpredictable materials, an amateur has a good chance of killing himself before it goes off. And let's face it, with only a +2 bonus on the Craft skill, your average kobold is not exactly MacGyver.

MacGyver: Epic Expert. In the game, +2 is enough to make traps deadly enough to directly threaten level 3 characters. They are certainly not amateurs, just not experts.

Speaking of building stuff, where are these kobolds getting all that alchemist's fire? Even if a few unusual ones have ranks in Craft(Alchemy), it'll take an awfully long time to make thirteen thousand gp worth of the stuff. Buying it doesn't seem sensible either. Even if they have access to a large city, it stretches credibility to think that hundreds of gallons of the stuff will be available all at once.

The same place they got 400 crossbows, 400 half spears, and a CR 13 treasure?

Can 400 non-classed kobolds with treasure appropriate be a challenge to a 13th level party? I think I have shown they can. 400 kobolds with alchemist fire is as plausible as 400 kobolds with no classed leaders, no traps, and not defending a lair. When answering a silly question, you tend to get silly answers.

The real way to run kobolds at higher levels is with classes, allies, and a trapped lair. No one doubts that this could be a challenge. And it can be interesting to very high levels, especially if you expand the tribe or use a different grouping to justify even higher levels.

 

[Numion]

Did you read that section? First of all, my example was about an ambush. It is not "implausible" at all. They just need to stay entirely out of sight. Full cover = no need for hide. 1 kobald in full view to scream to set off the ambush. Simple.

Sooo... all the kobolds are totally in cover, all 400 of them, and PCs can't in any way notice them? Sure would be nice to finally hit level 13 in your game .. and the next day encountering kobolds and having to bend over on all fours pulling skirts up. Come on, all 400 hundred of ye!

Thats really a good tactic . . standing behind trees an army could automatically ambush. Would be a pretty big surprise, that one!

Besides, if there's one in plain sight, PCs could act on the surprise round too, and they really wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be so sure about the kobolds, since their first sign of trouble comes if kobold gets to scream before dying. If he can't do that, the surprise is actually PCs.

 

[Bauglir]

I never said that kobolds shouldn't get traps, class levels, alchemists fire, whatever.

However some people have claimed that kobolds could present a challenge to a level 13 party. I disagree. Traps, class levels, etc could present a challenge to a level 13 party. Certainly nothing the kobold as presented in the MM has available could do so.

Does this mean you should ONLY use the basic kobold in any such encounters? No. All it means is that the kobold itself is no longer what makes the encounter challenging, no matter what tactics are employed.

 

[LokiDR]

Sooo... all the kobolds are totally in cover, all 400 of them, and PCs can't in any way notice them? Sure would be nice to finally hit level 13 in your game .. and the next day encountering kobolds and having to bend over on all fours pulling skirts up. Come on, all 400 hundred of ye!

If you want to pull up your skirt, and let the kobolds have their way with you, that is your choice. It seems you would like that.

Hilloc, cave, holes Or many many trees. 400 kobolds can stay out of sight. Armies of thousands have hidden for short times like this.

Thats really a good tactic . . standing behind trees an army could automatically ambush. Would be a pretty big surprise, that one!

If the PCs walk in, the kobolds get opening shots, yes.

Besides, if there's one in plain sight, PCs could act on the surprise round too, and they really wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be so sure about the kobolds, since their first sign of trouble comes if kobold gets to scream before dying. If he can't do that, the surprise is actually PCs.

New combatants come in at the top of the order, hence the other kobolds get to act.

Surprize doesn't matter anyway. How many could you kill in a round? The rest rush in and do some damage. PCs are still shoe-ins to win, but they will have to do more than blink. Hence the CR. Why do you keep skipping that point?

 

[LokiDR]

I never said that kobolds shouldn't get traps, class levels, alchemists fire, whatever.

However some people have claimed that kobolds could present a challenge to a level 13 party. I disagree. Traps, class levels, etc could present a challenge to a level 13 party. Certainly nothing the kobold as presented in the MM has available could do so.

Does this mean you should ONLY use the basic kobold in any such encounters? No. All it means is that the kobold itself is no longer what makes the encounter challenging, no matter what tactics are employed.

You do realize that situational modifyers are added to the basic encounter, right? If there are no kobolds, there isn't any challenge, except for independant traps.

I think I have shown that 400 kobolds can be dangerous as one large encounter, given only the stats in MM and simple thought. I agree this is dumb way to run kobolds, but that doesn't make them non-dangerous.

The concept of "more enemies, more danger" applies even when the kobolds are using traps, class levels, etc. A single level 8 kobold sorcerer is less dangerous than the same one with 399 friends. If you want to say the friends are adding to the sorcerer, or the sorcerer is adding to the friends, it is irrelevant. It is more challanging, and that result is what is desired.

 

[Bauglir]

You do realize that situational modifyers are added to the basic encounter, right?

Sure I do, but I also appreciate that in these cases I'm not just fighting my opponent, I'm fighting the situation (to some degree). Any situational modifiers significant enough to make kobolds a threat to a 13th level party will easily be the dominating factor in the challenge presented.

I think I have shown that 400 kobolds can be dangerous as one large encounter, given only the stats in MM and simple thought.

And the cash supply of a single CR 13 NPC

I agree this is dumb way to run kobolds, but that doesn't make them non-dangerous.

Wouldn't be a good brainstorm without the dumb situations

The concept of "more enemies, more danger" applies even when the kobolds are using traps, class levels, etc. A single level 8 kobold sorcerer is less dangerous than the same one with 399 friends. If you want to say the friends are adding to the sorcerer, or the sorcerer is adding to the friends, it is irrelevant. It is more challanging, and that result is what is desired.

Granted, but the challenge presented by the 399 others is near negligible alongside that sorcerer. Like I said in an early post they could all be illusions and fill more or less the same function.

 

[dcollins]

As for your rules arguement, I ask if a kobold is sentient. If they are, then they must be NPCs.

No, they are not, according to the treasure rules. Read DMG p. 171 under "NPCs with Treasure". NPCs are characters "worth about three times the average value of a treasure"... if kobolds have "Standard" treasure, then they do not qualify as NPCs in the context of this rule.

 

[mmu1]

Did you read that section? First of all, my example was about an ambush. It is not "implausible" at all. They just need to stay entirely out of sight. Full cover = no need for hide. 1 kobald in full view to scream to set off the ambush. Simple.

If you want to take the one-upmanship out of this encounter, just assume both parties are surprized and fairly near each other. None of this 20 precasts, tunnels, divinations and traps. Pure, simple, combat. In that case, you will see the kobalds are a challenge on par with a CR of 13. Apply situational modifiers (both pro and con) after that.

Just assume a 13th level party is going to be surprised by basic kobolds? What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

This situation is so absurd it's really quite amazing - 400 kobolds are going to be able to put themselves into position to ambush a 13th level party with a guarantee of success? How will they know which direction the party's coming from? Do they sit in little holes dug in the gorund 24/7, waiting for PCs to come by?

If they send out scouts to spot the PCs, those scouts will be noticed, ambushed and caught, because their Hide modifier is simply no match for a higher-level party's Spot.
For that matter, the very idea that the 13th level Rogue or the Ranger in the party's not going to notice the alterations to the landscape made by making enough hiding spaces for 400 creatures (creatures which take up a 5' square, incidentally, so we're not talking about rabbit holes here) is also completely laughable. They don't need to notice the kobolds, they just need to spot the holes. Which they'll do, since their Spot while taking 10 is going to beat any take 20 result the kobolds might possibly get.
Or the idea that 400 kobolds are going to be sitting so still for hours at a time that a party that might very well have Listen modifiers good enough to reliably pinpoint invisible creatures will have no chance of hearing them...
Or the assumption that the party's not going to have a character go invisible and fly over the area on a scouting mission, easily noticing the major earthworks.

Not to mention that given the DCs for pinpointing the location of invisible creatures the kobolds without LOS will have no way of telling how close the characters are... And that if they post a lookout, the moment he yells he's the only one with a surprise round, and the party and the kobolds are both going to roll initiative, which the kobolds are going to lose.

That's if the Rogue scouting ahead of the party, who can easily have a Hide modifier in the +30 range, doesn't sneak up on the lookout, knock him out and drag him away for interrogation - which, before you object, he'll definitely be able to do in any area suitable for hiding 400 kobolds. (Unless they do something "smart" like create an empty killing ground on the approach to the ambush point, on which the PCs won't set foot without some major scouting.)

To put it in simplest terms, monsters don't get to ambush a high-level party when many of their Take 20 skill checks (like Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, etc.) don't even beat the Take 1 results of the party scouts, and the party has the minimal intelligence to actually use the scouts while approaching a potentially hostile area. If anything is guaranteed in this situation, it's that the ambush is not going to work, unless the DM ignores the rules and declares the result he wants, which is what you're proposing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or the idea that 400 kobolds are going to be sitting so still for hours at a time that a party that might very well have Listen modifiers good enough to reliably pinpoint invisible creatures will have no chance of hearing them...

Unless the evil Cleric got there before the party in question.

400 Shadow kobolds make no noise at all, and they can Hide in the ground without digging any holes...

But unfortunately, 400 Shadow kobolds can't do much against a party that thinks to cast Ray of Enfeeblement on themselves.

-Hyp.