Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[LokiDR]

MMU1, you have no concept of the question I am trying to answer. I think you are being uncivil and pointlessly arguementative. But, then again, I like feeding trolls and having pointless arguements.

Just assume a 13th level party is going to be surprised by basic kobolds? What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

It is as valid an assumption as 400 kobolds with no leaders or that the posters here aren't on crack. But, since you asked, talk to Vinny on the corner of 3rd and Wells. He'll set you up.

This situation is so absurd it's really quite amazing - 400 kobolds are going to be able to put themselves into position to ambush a 13th level party with a guarantee of success? How will they know which direction the party's coming from? Do they sit in little holes dug in the gorund 24/7, waiting for PCs to come by?

Have we not gone over this point before? The entire situation is absurd, but that doesn't mean that the kobolds are not a threat.

I don't have to guarantee success of ambush for the kobolds, I just have to show they can be a threat. I just have to get the kobolds to within charging distance of the party. If you don't believe this is possible without high magic or +20 hide and move silent, you should smoke another bowl.

A few skill checks mean any trap is nullified. Does that mean it isn't a challenge?

If they send out scouts to spot the PCs, those scouts will be noticed, ambushed and caught, because their Hide modifier is simply no match for a higher-level party's Spot.
For that matter, the very idea that the 13th level Rogue or the Ranger in the party's not going to notice the alterations to the landscape made by making enough hiding spaces for 400 creatures (creatures which take up a 5' square, incidentally, so we're not talking about rabbit holes here) is also completely laughable. They don't need to notice the kobolds, they just need to spot the holes. Which they'll do, since their Spot while taking 10 is going to beat any take 20 result the kobolds might possibly get.

Natural cliff. Pre-exsisting tunnels. Mass teleport.

Do you expect a simple spot check to defeat any possible ambush? You have spot +40, so you can not be ambushed by anything with hide less that +22? Do you expect the DM to hand you the dungeon map up front as well?

400 kobolds out of sight, that's all it takes. They can pile up mutiple in a single square, until it is time to swarm out. This is far from unreasonable. I don't care if you spot the clif/cave/hole where they are, that doesn't mean you know there are 400 kobolds there.

Or the idea that 400 kobolds are going to be sitting so still for hours at a time that a party that might very well have Listen modifiers good enough to reliably pinpoint invisible creatures will have no chance of hearing them...

You see 1-5 active kobolds in front of you, the other 395+ are 30-60 feet away around walls, I don't think it is an automatic assumption you will hear them. Hear them what? Breath? Exist?

Or the assumption that the party's not going to have a character go invisible and fly over the area on a scouting mission, easily noticing the major earthworks.

I never called it guarenteed, you did. You are the one that always seems to assume scouts. Quit often people will skip the scouting duties. You keep making the assumptions, I am just showing the possibility of ambush.

Not to mention that given the DCs for pinpointing the location of invisible creatures the kobolds without LOS will have no way of telling how close the characters are

The kobolds only need to see the target once they charge.

... And that if they post a lookout, the moment he yells he's the only one with a surprise round,

I've already covered this. Bait and PCs start combat. Bait yells, all the other Kobolds come in at the top of the order as new combatants.

and the party and the kobolds are both going to roll initiative, which the kobolds are going to lose.

Every character in your party has +22 to initive? I'm impressed.

That's if the Rogue scouting ahead of the party, who can easily have a Hide modifier in the +30 range, doesn't sneak up on the lookout, knock him out and drag him away for interrogation - which, before you object, he'll definitely be able to do in any area suitable for hiding 400 kobolds. (Unless they do something "smart" like create an empty killing ground on the approach to the ambush point, on which the PCs won't set foot without some major scouting.)

Yes, the bait would be in an open spot. Bait normally is. Your concept is also foiled by using 5 kobolds (or 20) for bait. Your rogue can not get them all in a round. As for major scouting, you are making another assumption. Many parties have walked into traps like this before. But I am glad you would never, ever do something stupid. That would just be too human.

To put it in simplest terms, monsters don't get to ambush a high-level party when many of their Take 20 skill checks (like Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, etc.) don't even beat the Take 1 results of the party scouts,

Take 1, that must be a house rule.

I don't need to hide. I need to stay out of sight. Skills are not perfect.

and the party has the minimal intelligence to actually use the scouts while approaching a potentially hostile area.

Minimal intelligence. Do you how many times parties have fallen for these tatics? Forgoten, been to lazy, or just too stupid to send a scout? Perhaps you should take a closer look at the population of D&D players outside your own group.

If anything is guaranteed in this situation,

There go those assumptions of yours.

it's that the ambush is not going to work, unless the DM ignores the rules and declares the result he wants, which is what you're proposing.

When have I proposed throwing out the rules? You keep insisting that your character is unbeatable. I use rules like staying out of sight entirely as opposed to weak hide checks.

It is entirely possible to destroy the entire kobold encounter with a few good skills/rolls and some good tatics. The same can be said of ANY trap. So, by your reasoning, traps are never a challenge.

The fact that that the kobolds are avoidable doesn't make them not a challenge. What if they were the only way to get further through a tunnel? I don't care why you fight them, if you know they are there, or if you can kill them all. All I have to show to answer the posed question is that you have some challenge in doing so.

 

[dcollins]

I don't need to hide. I need to stay out of sight.

When have I proposed throwing out the rules?

 

[green slime]

I think I'll go and play some DnD. All the encounters and challenges the DM throws at me I shall avoid, by staying at home. Aren't I the brave adventurer?

All encounters are avoidable. Saying that the players can avoid this encounter means nothing. Its about player choice not player straight-jacket.

 

[Bauglir]

I use rules like staying out of sight entirely as opposed to weak hide checks.

Isn't the whole point of the hide skill to represent the ability to stay out of sight? If it's not used for this then what is it used for?

 

[mmu1]

MMU1, you have no concept of the question I am trying to answer. I think you are being uncivil and pointlessly arguementative. But, then again, I like feeding trolls and having pointless arguements.

Well, with your debating skills, it certainly helps if you like pointlessly embarassing yourself. Your whole argument is by now limited to the pointless contrived, and essentially goes like this: "If the players forget to make any skill checks, and the kobolds don't have to make any skill checks, and the party happens to walk up to the kobolds in precisely the way I want them to, the kobolds are CR 13.", which would do absolutely nothing for the "Tuckerite" argument even if you weren't ignoring the rules for Hide and Move Silently. So please, continue to embarass yourself.

 

[LokiDR]

Isn't the whole point of the hide skill to represent the ability to stay out of sight? If it's not used for this then what is it used for?

If a character is on the other side of a wall, with full cover, they can not be seen. At this point, hide checks are pointless, you can not see the character. Hide checks only apply if you have a chance of seeing them.

This means that they can not see you and you are perfectly hidden from them, no matter what your hide check is.

Smoke sticks would be another example. If a character lights off a smoke stick and stands on the other side of the smoke from you, do they need to make a hide check? A smart combatant can take one sense out of the equasion entirely.

So then it comes down to listen checks. The kobolds are not moving at all, 30-60 feet away, and behind walls (effectively). That makes something on the order of 10 (unarmored person moving) +3 to 6 (distance) +15 (through stone wall) which is something on the order of 28. No 13th level group is going to make that on bonues. Max ranks+alterness gives you 50/50. So ambush is far from certain either way.

As for the kobolds hearing the bait screem, it would be something like -5 (screaming) +3 to 6 (distance) +15 (through stone wall), or about 13. Some one of them is going to hear that, just on statistics. Then they charge.

All I am pointing out is the resonable possibility of success for the kobolds. Even if ambush is spotted by the PCs through inteligent play, what are they going to do if they have to get past the kobolds to go on, as in a tunnel? If you go around, you have skipped the encounter, so no XP. If you barrel through, they are going to get some shots on you, hence the challenge. Even if everything goes perfectly for the kobolds, the PCs should be able to take it without too much worry of major loss, as with any CR13 baddie.

This is why I believe that 400 unclassed kobolds is still a CR13, though it takes some thought. I think the encounter is dumb and I would hate running the fight, but it still would be some challenge for the PCs.

 

[LokiDR]

Well, with your debating skills, it certainly helps if you like pointlessly embarassing yourself. Your whole argument is by now limited to the pointless contrived, and essentially goes like this: "If the players forget to make any skill checks, and the kobolds don't have to make any skill checks, and the party happens to walk up to the kobolds in precisely the way I want them to, the kobolds are CR 13.", which would do absolutely nothing for the "Tuckerite" argument even if you weren't ignoring the rules for Hide and Move Silently. So please, continue to embarass yourself.

Hmm, let me see. Your response to my arguement is personal insult and a straw-man arguement. I'm the one embarassing myself? Riiiiiight.

I have never proposed a Tuckerite argument. Exactly the opposite. A "kobold wave" attack can be a challenge, refuting the concept that 400 unclassed, non-allied, homeless, trap-less kobolds can not be a challenge or a threat.

I can see I am wasting my breath on you. You don't care about rules or plausibility, only about being right. I think you are scared that a DM of yours will get creative one of these days and throw something out of the ordinary at you. You seem to believe that there is no way for weak creatures to be dangerous in large groups and ignore all evidence to the contrary. I'm sorry, but that isn't the case. You won't accept it, but I believe others will.

Have a nice day, MMU1.

 

[Numion]

So then it comes down to listen checks. The kobolds are not moving at all, 30-60 feet away, and behind walls (effectively). That makes something on the order of 10 (unarmored person moving) +3 to 6 (distance) +15 (through stone wall) which is something on the order of 28. No 13th level group is going to make that on bonues. Max ranks+alterness gives you 50/50. So ambush is far from certain either way.

I think that the +15 applies only if the sound actually has to go through the wall, and is thus dampened. I think that it doesn't mean an open wall, which the pit would be. You can try that - it's very easy to speak to a person behind the corner of a stone house, for example, even though he is behind two wall by your reasoning. The sound goes around the walls, rather than through the walls. Just like what would happen if you lie in a trench or hole where the kobolds are.

In closed environment +15 is ok, like hearing stuff from another apartment with no open doors or windows in the way.

 

[LokiDR]

I think that the +15 applies only if the sound actually has to go through the wall, and is thus dampened. I think that it doesn't mean an open wall, which the pit would be. You can try that - it's very easy to speak to a person behind the corner of a stone house, for example, even though he is behind two wall by your reasoning. The sound goes around the walls, rather than through the walls. Just like what would happen if you lie in a trench or hole where the kobolds are.

In closed environment +15 is ok, like hearing stuff from another apartment with no open doors or windows in the way.

A fair point.

Now, take a look at the base DC of 10 for a moving unarmored character moving. The kobolds are not moving at all. I think that base number should be raised.

As for the modifier for hearing through a wall, I would say it isn't clear. How extensive of an incomplete wall should the +15 apply to? If the wall is 120' square on a featureless plain, what is the penalty to hear a sound on one side from the other side?

So, depending on how you want to play with the math, it is very reasonable to believe that the DC will be above the level of automatic success for the PCs.

 

[mmu1]

Hmm, let me see. Your response to my arguement is personal insult and a straw-man arguement. I'm the one embarassing myself? Riiiiiight.

Hey, you're finally right about one thing... As for the rest, go look up the definition of "straw-man", sarcasm directed at someone's dumb idea isn't it. And if you don't like things getting personal, don't post snide crap - you're clearly not equipped for it, and you'll probably just hurt yourself.

I have never proposed a Tuckerite argument. Exactly the opposite. A "kobold wave" attack can be a challenge, refuting the concept that 400 unclassed, non-allied, homeless, trap-less kobolds can not be a challenge or a threat.

Good point, my bad... That means your only actual contribution to the thread is pointing out something contrived and painfully obvious - "Anything can be a challenge if the circumstances are unusual enough." Sorry for giving you too much credit.

I can see I am wasting my breath on you. You don't care about rules or plausibility, only about being right. I think you are scared that a DM of yours will get creative one of these days and throw something out of the ordinary at you. You seem to believe that there is no way for weak creatures to be dangerous in large groups and ignore all evidence to the contrary. I'm sorry, but that isn't the case. You won't accept it, but I believe others will.

Have a nice day, MMU1.

Wow, is that the crushing "No, you are!" argument? "I know, I'll say he isn't following the rules, then people will miss all those posts I've made talking about automatic outcomes!"

I hope none of my DMs get as "creative" as you are, it'd be awkward if I fell asleep during a game session.

And, heh... "All evidence to the contrary?" Look around, bub, you're practically by yourself out here, shouting the same tired crap in response no matter how many ways people try to get through to you.

But remember, "No, you are!" is your friend, if people get bored with trying to reason with you and go away, you win!