D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[Manbearcat]

Tactical infinity must bow to the fact that, without some basic ground rules, narratives become incoherent.

Sure. And I'd also add "Tactical Infinity must bow to game-engine-buckling action declarations." You've got to weigh the impact on the game engine of any given action (declared-and-resolved).

But (while, granted, you need to be conscientious about it) there is no certitude that "narrative becomes incoherent" in this kind of situation. Further, if narrative doesn't become incoherent...if game engine doesn't buckle...and if play becomes more dynamic (thematically and tactically) as a result?

Doesn't that add up to "sure, lets set some compelling (tactically/strategically and thematically) stakes, sort out the DC, and resolve?"

 

[Imaro]

Sure. And I'd also add "Tactical Infinity must bow to game-engine-buckling action declarations." You've got to weigh the impact on the game engine of any given action (declared-and-resolved).

But (while, granted, you need to be conscientious about it) there is no certitude that "narrative becomes incoherent" in this kind of situation. Further, if narrative doesn't become incoherent...if game engine doesn't buckle...and if play becomes more dynamic (thematically and tactically) as a result?

Doesn't that add up to "sure, lets set some compelling (tactically/strategically and thematically) stakes, sort out the DC, and resolve?"

That's alot of if's and none of which are made explicitly clear in the OP. The other thing I haven't seen discussed is the fact that it very much steps all over the themes, niche and schtick of the divine based classes... How does the cleric, or traditional paladin feel about the fact that once the DM makes this decision the fiction is now established that anyone can heal or gain the direct attention of gods for miracles just by saying a prayer?

 

[Umbran]

But (while, granted, you need to be conscientious about it) there is no certitude that "narrative becomes incoherent" in this kind of situation.

What is "this kind of situation"?

If I have a setting in which the gods do not interfere in such manner, and there's a reason for that, and that fact is woven into its history, to violate that is incoherent. Literally. As in, it is inconsistent with the established fiction. The whole is no longer sticking together. Not cohering. Incoherent.

Similarly, if you are playing in a game set in the Old West, sans supernatural elements, an action declaration of "I teleport three miles out of town to beat the bandits to the Double-Q Ranch," ought to be a non-starter.

If there are literally no bounds on action declaration, you don't have "tactical infinity". You have Calvinball. Tactics is the art of succeeding using the rules and bounds of a situation.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's alot of if's and none of which are made explicitly clear in the OP. The other thing I haven't seen discussed is the fact that it very much steps all over the themes, niche and schtick of the divine based classes... How does the cleric, or traditional paladin feel about the fact that once the DM makes this decision the fiction is now established that anyone can heal or gain the direct attention of gods for miracles just by saying a prayer?

I don't actually have a Cleric or Paladin proper in my home DW game, though the Druid and Ranger both took the option that lets them pick up Cleric spellcasting (though the Druid semi-retired upon actually going to that point.)

But let's say I did have one. There are only four possible situations I can think of where this could apply:

1. The Cleric or Paladin is the dying friend. The Fighter is showing an impressive display of piety, and more importantly, showing just how important the dying character is to them. Far from stepping on the divine character's toes, this sounds like a beautiful opportunity for these two characters to become much closer. The Cleric or Paladin could become a mentor in the faith to the Fighter. Or, if my aforementioned "you rolled badly and now you're stuck in a deal with a dark power" thing applies, well now we have some juicy drama, don't we? Will the Fighter come clean and try to get the Cleric/Paladin to help them? Will they keep it secret? Will there be marks on the Cleric/Paladin (visible or invisible) which could negatively affect their future situation? Super uncertain.
2. The C/P is incapable of helping for whatever reason. Similar to the above, but less poignant and personal. Same overall pattern applies though.
3. The C/P could help, but is refusing to. This creates tension rather than closeness, but is essentially the antagonistic version of the previous two options.
4. The C/P can help, is willing to help, and would do so if allowed the opportunity, but the Fighter jumped in front and is doing this first.

Of these, only the last is one where I see any issues...and it's unclear why the Fighter would do this at all. Surely, if there's an issue like this and nothing preventing it, the Cleric or Paladin would have just used magic (spells, Lay on Hands) to fix the problem. Or, if their magic has run dry, it still seems weird that the Fighter would attempt an untrained thing when the Cleric or Paladin is right there and fully capable of doing the same thing with higher effectiveness.

I guess what I'm saying is, we necessarily need to assume actively crappy behavior on the part of the Fighter in order to get to the notion that the Fighter is stepping on thematic toes. Otherwise, we have a situation where the thematically-best-fit character is unable or unwilling to help, and thus someone else is trying to fill that intentional or situational void.

More importantly, any concerns a player might have about "well why can't I do that?" can be answered very simply: "You already can. You have no risk and a large supply of readily-available power. A standing deal, if you will. You could always try to negotiate for extra stuff, if you like, but that will have risks like, but not the same as, what the Fighter risked. You'll probably be better at it, and the kinds of results you get will generally be more favorable. But asking for extra beyond what you are already promised is something that should have consequences."

 

[Imaro]

I don't actually have a Cleric or Paladin proper in my home DW game, though the Druid and Ranger both took the option that lets them pick up Cleric spellcasting (though the Druid semi-retired upon actually going to that point.)

But let's say I did have one. There are only four possible situations I can think of where this could apply:

1. The Cleric or Paladin is the dying friend. The Fighter is showing an impressive display of piety, and more importantly, showing just how important the dying character is to them. Far from stepping on the divine character's toes, this sounds like a beautiful opportunity for these two characters to become much closer. The Cleric or Paladin could become a mentor in the faith to the Fighter. Or, if my aforementioned "you rolled badly and now you're stuck in a deal with a dark power" thing applies, well now we have some juicy drama, don't we? Will the Fighter come clean and try to get the Cleric/Paladin to help them? Will they keep it secret? Will there be marks on the Cleric/Paladin (visible or invisible) which could negatively affect their future situation? Super uncertain.
2. The C/P is incapable of helping for whatever reason. Similar to the above, but less poignant and personal. Same overall pattern applies though.
3. The C/P could help, but is refusing to. This creates tension rather than closeness, but is essentially the antagonistic version of the previous two options.
4. The C/P can help, is willing to help, and would do so if allowed the opportunity, but the Fighter jumped in front and is doing this first.

1. This assumes the fighter is interested in pursuing a path of piety... and assumes the Cleric or Paladin deserves/needs/wants a Dues Ex Machina to circumvent the consequences of their actions... Why are neither of these a problem. Also the fact that there is drama created doesn't address the fact that the fiction of anyone being able to do much of the cleric's main schtick has been decided solely by the DM. Also how does this trickle down into the world at large...

2. And similar to above you have effectively allowed a Deus Ex Machina to circumvent consequences, allowed a player (and by implication anybody) access to the niche of another player and defined a part of your worlds fiction that has gigantic ramifications for anyone who chose a religious character.

3. Again this doesn't really address the point I'm getting at. You're answers seem to be boiling down to... well IMO it's ok because IMO, it would make a cool story and simultaneously ignoring the actual reasons someone playing a cleric or paladin might not like it or think it's such a cool story.

4. The funny thing, for the Cleric or Paladin the result of each of these is the same for the fiction and how religious characters/gods fit into it. Once this action is possible... what would stop any and everyone from trying it if there is a chance the cleric can't do it or in order to save resources? If any one can ask for miracles... why are there clerics and paladins? Why not just warriors who pray when they need something?

Of these, only the last is one where I see any issues...and it's unclear why the Fighter would do this at all. Surely, if there's an issue like this and nothing preventing it, the Cleric or Paladin would have just used magic (spells, Lay on Hands) to fix the problem. Or, if their magic has run dry, it still seems weird that the Fighter would attempt an untrained thing when the Cleric or Paladin is right there and fully capable of doing the same thing with higher effectiveness.

But this is exactly what you are opening up once this is allowed, once the fiction is established... if it works... why wouldn't you try it whenever you can?

I guess what I'm saying is, we necessarily need to assume actively crappy behavior on the part of the Fighter in order to get to the notion that the Fighter is stepping on thematic toes. Otherwise, we have a situation where the thematically-best-fit character is unable or unwilling to help, and thus someone else is trying to fill that intentional or situational void.

No we don't have to assume "crappy" behavior on the part of the Fighter. All we need is for the DM to establish it as fiction. Why wouldn't you use it if it works? If it does your character is just as effective (if not more because you didn't have to cast a spell or anything) as the cleric or paladin.

Here's a question... what would be the DC in Athletics be for the Cleric to gain the multiple attacks of a fighter? Would this be stepping on the fighter's toes (and assume a character's life is at risk from an opponent the cleric may not be able to take out with just one attack)? If so, why? If not, why not?

Also would you expect that character to only ever try it in life or death situations once it was established that it could ben done, if so, why?

More importantly, any concerns a player might have about "well why can't I do that?" can be answered very simply: "You already can. You have no risk and a large supply of readily-available power. A standing deal, if you will. You could always try to negotiate for extra stuff, if you like, but that will have risks like, but not the same as, what the Fighter risked. You'll probably be better at it, and the kinds of results you get will generally be more favorable. But asking for extra beyond what you are already promised is something that should have consequences."

You expend resources, you have component restrictions, and so on are all reasons a player might want to just be able to say a prayer and heal. Moreso would they be able to cast magic missile with an Arcaqna check if they wanted to? Gain the extra attacks of a fighter with an Athletics check? If so my question would be why are we playing a class-based (instead of skill or point-buy based) game?

 

[jgsugden]

The Fighter calls on their God for a miracle.... but the one that answers and offers aid would be something looking to deal in my game. An Archfey, Fiend, Celestial ... whoeveer it was would be looking to negotiate.

 

[Blue]

Back in AD&D 2nd my primary DM had these things called God Shots. You could call out to your god, and they may answer. And you got pretty massive penalties until honored them enough for that.

It was a series of d%, each trying to be lower than the previous. The player could stop at any point, because there were growign burdens put on the character for each level down.

First the player rolled d% to make their plea. This would often get a modifier based on how appropriate the plea was, how eloquent, etc. +15% was a big deal.

Then roll d% under (well, equal or under) for the god to hear. No action at this point, but already the character is accumulating divine debt.

Again roll d% under for the god to Speak. This could also be used for the god to trigger a spell you had prepared they had given you if you were a cleric or druid. But if that wasn't enough...

Roll d% under for the god to Act. This was a minor Action on the deity level - usually the effect of a divine spell going off. This could be a Revivify for the fighter's friend if they were dead, or a cure wounds if they were still dying, though really the AD&D equilents. It usually wasn't stingy - if a Cure Light Wounds would stop them from dying but you were higher level, you likely go the higher level Cure X Wounds spell.

If that wasn't enough, roll under d% to Send. This was an Archon or something. Not lightweight. This was a big deal.

And finally, roll under d% to Manifest. They (or an avatar) would appear briefly. You were most likely going to be become an NPC to devote the rest of your life to the god. I think we only saw this twice in like 10 years of play.

Now, if you tithed 10% of what you got from an adventure to your church you could get a +1% god shot, which means you could pull down one roll by 1% once. And besides any other burdens laid on you for the boon, each level also gave you a fairly large penalty to God Shot that you would need to get back to 0% before ever trying again. I think Act was -30%, so donating everything you got from three good adventures could balance that out.

 

[DarkCrisis]

The Rogue: "Stop praying, just use the bandages."

 

[Staffan]

Let's reformulate the question: "What's the DC of a cleric with no spell slots remaining to heal their ally with a prayer?"

If they know the spare the dying cantrip, nothing. They just cast it.
If they don't, and they're level 10+, they can try for Divine Intervention.
If they're not, or if they've used the ability too recently, they can try a Wisdom (Medicine) check at DC 10 to stabilize their ally. Should they have a healer's kit and expend a use of it, this is automatic.
If no, well...

 

[the Jester]

So let's change the situation. What's the (presumably Int (Arcana)) DC for a fighter to cast magic missile?