D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[pemerton]

In 4e D&D, there are three possibilities:

*The player of the fighter is trying to trigger their ally's second wind, and second wind hasn't been used yet since the last short rest;

*The player of the fighter is trying to trigger their ally's second wind, and second wind hasn't been used yet since the last short rest;

*The player of the fighter is trying to grant surgeless healing.​

The first is, by default, a DC 10 Healing check standard action, requiring adjacency. As a prayer, I would probably adjudicate it as a Medium DC Religion check, and perhaps be a bit more relaxed about the range.

The second is emulating a typical leader minor action encounter power. As a standard action prayer, I think it would be similar to the above, but with a fail causing d8+ level psychic damage (from the anguish of the prayer being ignored).

The third is emulating a cleric standard action daily power, or (with healing surge sacrifice) a paladin minor action daily power. That would require the player of the fighter to sacrifice something - probably two healing surges plus some magic item or ability that is appropriate in the fiction.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, I answered the question as I would run it at my table in my post following the one you quoted. As for the whole “dissociated mechanics” thing, it’s nonsense that was made up to rag on 4e. I never had a problem with AEDU, I actually think it was a great system and it’s a shame WotC ditched it. Anyway, if gods definitively exist and intervene directly with mortals (not true of all 1st party D&D settings by the way, let alone all home campaigns), that doesn’t guarantee they will intervene to help any random fighter whenever he prays to them. I think a DM is 100% justified in ruling that this action has no reasonable chance of success and therefore not call for a roll.

Well, we definitely half agree at the very least

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The fact that healing miracles (healing spells) via the fiction and mechanics are tied up in magic and/or devotion (i.e. the cleric, paladin, druid, etc.). This fighter fiction wise has not been established to have either magic or devotion to the god he/she/they are praying to.



For specifically devoted people they use as conduits. Nothing in the fiction of the game (or the rules) establish this for people without magic and/or devotion to said god. This is not to say the DM can't decide this is viable... but it's not the default.



Sure they can... through spells, and possibly blessings and charms in 5e



I'm not seeing a dissociation, I'm seeing unfounded expectations of what is or isn't possible in this world via the default fiction.

Well, I guess some settings might, but who and where was all this established? I mean, restricting ourselves to 5e for a moment, I see nothing which states the things you've stated are 'established'. I mean, SOMEONE can 'establish' them as they please, but lets not pretend there's any such requirement! 5e certainly doesn't create such.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ok, sure. But what, in fiction, differentiates a wizard from someone trained in Arcana? Or what, in fiction, separates a pious, prayerful acolyte from a cleric?

It's not that one can't come up with narrative reasons for it, it's more that class mechanics restrain certain fiction arising from diegetic play. The narrative of "young boy discovers a lost grimoire and learns how to summon magical power" isn't something that happens in-play without a lot of meta discussion between the player and the DM about how to modify the character accordingly.

Yes, well, and now I can interject another of my patented game design notes: So, @pemerton didn't specify what game he was asking this in the context of (though it was posted in 'D&D' so I guess we can assume basically its conventions). In my own 4e-like homebrew game there are a lot of things that bear on this. First of all everything is acquired by characters in the form of boons. There are no absolute rules which state that only class X can get boon Y, so the whole issue of 'going out of your lane' so to speak in class terms is really non-existent. Your character has class features, and a power source, and that has some bearing on what sorts of 'stuff' the player might find most mechanically synergistic with their existing character attributes, but unless a boon actually keys off a class feature, its fair game for anyone.

That being said, in my game you don't acquire boons by getting XP. Things work rather in more of the reverse way. You do things, fictionally, which results in the acquisition of certain boons, and how many boons you have determines your level. So, one VERY simple answer is the Fighter prays to the God of Healing for the power to spare his comrade's life. "You feel a surge of energy as Dawg answers your prayer. Two of your power points are expended and your friend's most grievous wounds quickly knit shut!" Now, you just gained a Major Boon, you are going to go up a level, and that's your boon for level X! Furthermore, because you are a Martial character, you must expend an extra power point whenever you invoke this divine power. If you wish to undergo the training needed to align yourself with the spirit power source, you can try to find a way (quest) to acquire the Major Boon Spiritual Alignment. This is likely to require a major quest!

It could be handled other ways as well. Maybe this is treated as an improvised attempt to invoke a power the character doesn't have. That would require checks, which will involve the playing out of a challenge. Perhaps it can be treated like an affliction, which means some number of successes would be required, and the character passes away at the third failure, let us say. Now the character might simply try Religion for one or more of these successes, maybe praying helps, but it isn't going to fix the whole problem, for sure. Its also likely to require supplies, etc. even with some modest divine help. This fighter is not a cleric, etc. but maybe if he shows enough faith the god will at least give his friend a fighting chance.

 

[CleverNickName]

So let's change the situation. What's the (presumably Int (Arcana)) DC for a fighter to cast magic missile?

I'm not saying I would do this, but depending on the gaming group and the style of the campaign, I don't think this is impossible. Like, if the party REALLY NEEDS that magic missile, so badly that someone's life depends on it (like in the OP's example)...as the DM, I would try to help make it happen. Maybe something like this?

​

The fighter remembers seeing the wizard mutter some kind of phrase that sounded a lot like "migizzlewik," and he waved his hand sort of in a swish with his fingers crossed...so he goes through the motions and grits his teeth. "Migizzlewik!" he says, to no effect.​

​

He tries again.​

​

After the third time (and third failure), a magic missile flies over his shoulder and strikes his target. "Was that what you were trying to do?" says the handsome, ruby-skinned tiefling suddenly standing behind him. "You know, if you want to learn magic--and I mean real magic--I can arrange that."​

​

"Who are you?" the fighter demands, drawing his sword and stepping back into a combat stance.​

​

"They call me Migizzlewik," the demon says, with a silky voice. "And I can be your new best friend."​

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Tactical infinity must bow to the fact that, without some basic ground rules, narratives become incoherent.

I don't think the idea is that all tactics are BORN EQUAL, just that there are an infinite set of possible responses in any situation, and a system obeying this 'rule' allows the players to suggest, with some expectation that the GM adjudication will be favorable, and presumably produce some sort of balanced outcomes. I think 'tactical infinity' is basically one way of describing the core concept that Dave Arneson was building on to make an RPG in the first place.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, I guess some settings might, but who and where was all this established?

Wouldn’t the gods’ willingness to directly intervene on behalf of a lay person who merely prays to them be the thing that requires establishing?

 

[Blue]

Let's put this in the most pervasive way.

A devout cleric is down and dying. He has cure spells, spare the dying, empty slots - but is unconscious and bleeding with two failed death saves, slumped at the top of the tower. The acolyte monk, a religious man but given different gifts, prays outside the keep to their shared god, for the god to cure him, for the god to let him reach him to bind his wounds, or at least let the cleric help himself, since otherwise he can not reach him in time.

Mechanically they have no resource for prayer to succeed by the rules.

If this situation showed up in at your table in your D&D game (any edition), is there a path for the prayer to work? At cost or whatever?

 

[the Jester]

If this situation showed up in at your table in your D&D game (any edition), is there a path for the prayer to work? At cost or whatever?

The cost, basically, had to be paid in the past by devoting oneself to the god and becoming a cleric or paladin. It's too late to pay the rent when you're already being evicted.

 

[Blue]

The cost, basically, had to be paid in the past by devoting oneself to the god and becoming a cleric or paladin. It's too late to pay the rent when you're already being evicted.

So the answer is no for you. That's all I was looking for.