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Pathfinder 2E What's the deal with 3rd party PF2E Adventure "support"??

darjr

I crit!
While there may the people wanting to create, would there be people wanting to buy?

Because while I love the DMs Guild, the sales numbers are not that great. There are a very few creators that do okay with it, but when you consider that PF is significantly less popular than 5E, it is much harder to justify the effort and expense in a product - especially with added costs over DTRPG or other platforms. Is Golarian really worth that much?

(MT Black recently released a Call of Cthulhu adventure under their Community Creator system. He found it an interesting experiment, but the sales numbers don't justify him spending more time with that program).

Cheers!
I agree, for someone making some of thier living off of writing adventures. However I’m mor interested in local communities and legal PFS content like the CCC model.

Also I know quite a few DMsGuild authors that created one or only a few adventures, not to make money, more like a bucket list item. I suspect there are lots of those on the PF side. One of them is actually a very good author.
 

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dmccoy1693

Adventurer
Publisher
How many third party publishers would jump on board a “DMsGuild” but for Paizo IP? I’d think that would work well. especially if 1e was also open on it.
The basic idea, sure. Its the details of the license that would kill it. For one: not being able to sell elsewhere would absolutely kill it. Sales on Paizo's site are so bad, publishers (even those that publish for 2e) are pulling out of the site. It is literally my worst selling location I sell products. I sell more in print distribution and I only have 3 products available via that method. So if I could sell it elsewhere, the question then becomes how do I prove sales and pay for said license. That could be a pain.

The next part is, what do I get for said paid license beyond the ability to work in paizo's setting? For the Traveller license, I've asked for all the basic system books and the overall setting books (High Guard, Vehicle Handbook, Behind the Claw, etc) and I've been given PDF copies. While not much, it is a cost I don't have to incur. Could I expect something like that from Paizo?

Another is their commitment to longevity. Will they shut it down because 1e sales are more than their 2e sales? Whenever they decide to end it (because it will end some day), how much notice will I be given? Will I find out in a press release that it is ending next week while I have a book ready to go or will I know a year in advance? I'd want some kind of commitment to a minimum program length of 3 years at the outset. Also, are we going to find out what they are doing when customers do or can we be given some heads up so we can make compatible products that come out at the same time? I started working on a Solomani Worlds book before the public found out that Mongoose is coming out with a book for that region of space. Is it ready today, no. However, I am much further along than if I had found out about it when the public did.

Next is promotion. DriveThruRPG retweets almost all of my tweets where I tag them. This is especially true for my Traveller products that are on the license. Fantasy Grounds and the Open Gaming Store don't retweet as many, but they do enough. Paizo never does any, at all. I think they liked one of my tweets where I tagged them, like ever. As a result, I don't post tweets to Paizo's store anymore. Hell, I don't even post link to their store anymore. If I'm paying for a license, I'd want their promotional practices to change. Maybe some mentions in their newsletter. I still remember when Paizo sent out a special email to their entire fan base to tell them the Tome of Horrors Complete is available and they really should download it (from their site). Have they done that for any of mine? No. Paizo is very much a "inner circle of friends get the good promotions" company. I'd want hear some kind of commitment to more fairness in their practices on that.

There's more, but you get the overall of what I am talking about. Because of their website and the way their company is structured, creating such a thing would be an uphill effort.
 

dmccoy1693

Adventurer
Publisher
While there may the people wanting to create, would there be people wanting to buy?

Because while I love the DMs Guild, the sales numbers are not that great. There are a very few creators that do okay with it, but when you consider that PF is significantly less popular than 5E, it is much harder to justify the effort and expense in a product - especially with added costs over DTRPG or other platforms. Is Golarian really worth that much?

(MT Black recently released a Call of Cthulhu adventure under their Community Creator system. He found it an interesting experiment, but the sales numbers don't justify him spending more time with that program).

Cheers!
Compare that with my Traveller numbers. Half my income these days is Traveller 2e. And that is at 50% of the sales price, compared to 65% for PFRPG, D&D 5e, and 13th Age.
 

teitan

Hero
I don't think 3pp is important like it was 5-15 or more years ago, especially for Paizo, who has built a strong brand name for quality products. 3pp doesn't really drive core sales like it used to with just about every 3pp publisher now developing house systems and those of D&D inclination adopting some form of the OSR movement as their core system. While Paizo supports 3pp because of the OGL primarily, they don't need 3pp. Back in the day 3pp really drove the industy. I managed a game/comic shop and once the D20 bubble burst and we started getting more quality product 3pp for D&D it really kept the industry going when White Wolf crapped the bed and ended the original WOD and Chaosium started having funding issues as well as undelivered product (Pulp Cthulhu I am looking at you). The market was still nowhere near the size it is now and what I can see is that that market is basically 5e with very little lifting of other publishers. Paizo is banking on what is now essentially a house system, almost divorced from D&D, especially with WOTC now slowly dropping or changing D&Disms like Alignments and adopting the Tasha's rules as standard.

What Paizo struggled with, and struggles with, is the identification of Pathfinder with D&D. I have been invited to play D&D in groups, they say D&D but it's Pathfinder. They are considered synonymous. With 5e being such a massive and the publishers like Kobold and such having very close relationships with WOTC, its kind of hurt them in that 3pp field because Pathfinder no longer resembles 3.5 era D&D, nor is it 5e era D&D. So the two massive audiences are no longer there for Paizo in that regard. They are banking on Pathfinder/Golarion fans. They are building their own brand identity beyond "unofficial heir" to 3.5. 3pp would help but like other games, it's not necessary and compared to other companies, they are also doing very well.

I think we, as a community, have placed a lot of emphasis on 3pp support as an indicator of success but we seem to only apply it to D&D and Pathfinder. We overanalyze it but barely breathe of the idea for Cthulhu or any number of other games out there. Other OGL based games failed even with decent support like Mongoose Runequest. Maybe it's time we quit looking at 3pp support for anything not called D&D?
 
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How many third party publishers would jump on board a “DMsGuild” but for Paizo IP? I’d think that would work well. especially if 1e was also open on it.
In fact I am wondering why Paizo hasn’t done exactly this. Anyone know anything?
Probs legal reasons.

Books on dmsguild.com don't need any legal extras. OGL page and citied works. Ya just need to do up a PDF and toss it online.
But everything on paizo.com needs the OGL page. It'd require someone to manually check each submission with legal to make sure it has the proper text and that the adventure doesn't include an umber hulk or sends the heroes to the Demonweb Pits.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It'd require someone to manually check each submission with legal to make sure it has the proper text and that the adventure doesn't include an umber hulk or sends the heroes to the Demonweb Pits.
I don't think that's any different to DMsG having to make sure Batman isn't in a product.
 

I don't think that's any different to DMsG having to make sure Batman isn't in a product.
I'd hope a reasonable person knows not to include Batman in a DnD product.
But knowing a beholder is DnD and not Pathfinder is more specialised knowledge. Or that you can use Asmodeus but not Zariel.

Can you use the roper? Is the flumph allowed or not? Displacer beasts. Yes or no? Which planes are fair game?
 
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darjr

I crit!
DMSGuild still has this problem though, just with stuff that sin't allowed yet. Like Greyhawk. So I'm not sure how different that really makes it.

But good point, I didn't think of that.
 

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