• COMING SOON! -- Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition! Level up your 5E game! The standalone advanced 5E tabletop RPG adds depth and diversity to the game you love!
log in or register to remove this ad

 

Pathfinder 2E What's the deal with 3rd party PF2E Adventure "support"??

darjr

I crit!
While there may the people wanting to create, would there be people wanting to buy?

Because while I love the DMs Guild, the sales numbers are not that great. There are a very few creators that do okay with it, but when you consider that PF is significantly less popular than 5E, it is much harder to justify the effort and expense in a product - especially with added costs over DTRPG or other platforms. Is Golarian really worth that much?

(MT Black recently released a Call of Cthulhu adventure under their Community Creator system. He found it an interesting experiment, but the sales numbers don't justify him spending more time with that program).

Cheers!
I agree, for someone making some of thier living off of writing adventures. However I’m mor interested in local communities and legal PFS content like the CCC model.

Also I know quite a few DMsGuild authors that created one or only a few adventures, not to make money, more like a bucket list item. I suspect there are lots of those on the PF side. One of them is actually a very good author.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

dmccoy1693

Adventurer
Publisher
How many third party publishers would jump on board a “DMsGuild” but for Paizo IP? I’d think that would work well. especially if 1e was also open on it.
The basic idea, sure. Its the details of the license that would kill it. For one: not being able to sell elsewhere would absolutely kill it. Sales on Paizo's site are so bad, publishers (even those that publish for 2e) are pulling out of the site. It is literally my worst selling location I sell products. I sell more in print distribution and I only have 3 products available via that method. So if I could sell it elsewhere, the question then becomes how do I prove sales and pay for said license. That could be a pain.

The next part is, what do I get for said paid license beyond the ability to work in paizo's setting? For the Traveller license, I've asked for all the basic system books and the overall setting books (High Guard, Vehicle Handbook, Behind the Claw, etc) and I've been given PDF copies. While not much, it is a cost I don't have to incur. Could I expect something like that from Paizo?

Another is their commitment to longevity. Will they shut it down because 1e sales are more than their 2e sales? Whenever they decide to end it (because it will end some day), how much notice will I be given? Will I find out in a press release that it is ending next week while I have a book ready to go or will I know a year in advance? I'd want some kind of commitment to a minimum program length of 3 years at the outset. Also, are we going to find out what they are doing when customers do or can we be given some heads up so we can make compatible products that come out at the same time? I started working on a Solomani Worlds book before the public found out that Mongoose is coming out with a book for that region of space. Is it ready today, no. However, I am much further along than if I had found out about it when the public did.

Next is promotion. DriveThruRPG retweets almost all of my tweets where I tag them. This is especially true for my Traveller products that are on the license. Fantasy Grounds and the Open Gaming Store don't retweet as many, but they do enough. Paizo never does any, at all. I think they liked one of my tweets where I tagged them, like ever. As a result, I don't post tweets to Paizo's store anymore. Hell, I don't even post link to their store anymore. If I'm paying for a license, I'd want their promotional practices to change. Maybe some mentions in their newsletter. I still remember when Paizo sent out a special email to their entire fan base to tell them the Tome of Horrors Complete is available and they really should download it (from their site). Have they done that for any of mine? No. Paizo is very much a "inner circle of friends get the good promotions" company. I'd want hear some kind of commitment to more fairness in their practices on that.

There's more, but you get the overall of what I am talking about. Because of their website and the way their company is structured, creating such a thing would be an uphill effort.
 

dmccoy1693

Adventurer
Publisher
While there may the people wanting to create, would there be people wanting to buy?

Because while I love the DMs Guild, the sales numbers are not that great. There are a very few creators that do okay with it, but when you consider that PF is significantly less popular than 5E, it is much harder to justify the effort and expense in a product - especially with added costs over DTRPG or other platforms. Is Golarian really worth that much?

(MT Black recently released a Call of Cthulhu adventure under their Community Creator system. He found it an interesting experiment, but the sales numbers don't justify him spending more time with that program).

Cheers!
Compare that with my Traveller numbers. Half my income these days is Traveller 2e. And that is at 50% of the sales price, compared to 65% for PFRPG, D&D 5e, and 13th Age.
 

teitan

Legend
I don't think 3pp is important like it was 5-15 or more years ago, especially for Paizo, who has built a strong brand name for quality products. 3pp doesn't really drive core sales like it used to with just about every 3pp publisher now developing house systems and those of D&D inclination adopting some form of the OSR movement as their core system. While Paizo supports 3pp because of the OGL primarily, they don't need 3pp. Back in the day 3pp really drove the industy. I managed a game/comic shop and once the D20 bubble burst and we started getting more quality product 3pp for D&D it really kept the industry going when White Wolf crapped the bed and ended the original WOD and Chaosium started having funding issues as well as undelivered product (Pulp Cthulhu I am looking at you). The market was still nowhere near the size it is now and what I can see is that that market is basically 5e with very little lifting of other publishers. Paizo is banking on what is now essentially a house system, almost divorced from D&D, especially with WOTC now slowly dropping or changing D&Disms like Alignments and adopting the Tasha's rules as standard.

What Paizo struggled with, and struggles with, is the identification of Pathfinder with D&D. I have been invited to play D&D in groups, they say D&D but it's Pathfinder. They are considered synonymous. With 5e being such a massive and the publishers like Kobold and such having very close relationships with WOTC, its kind of hurt them in that 3pp field because Pathfinder no longer resembles 3.5 era D&D, nor is it 5e era D&D. So the two massive audiences are no longer there for Paizo in that regard. They are banking on Pathfinder/Golarion fans. They are building their own brand identity beyond "unofficial heir" to 3.5. 3pp would help but like other games, it's not necessary and compared to other companies, they are also doing very well.

I think we, as a community, have placed a lot of emphasis on 3pp support as an indicator of success but we seem to only apply it to D&D and Pathfinder. We overanalyze it but barely breathe of the idea for Cthulhu or any number of other games out there. Other OGL based games failed even with decent support like Mongoose Runequest. Maybe it's time we quit looking at 3pp support for anything not called D&D?
 
Last edited:

How many third party publishers would jump on board a “DMsGuild” but for Paizo IP? I’d think that would work well. especially if 1e was also open on it.
In fact I am wondering why Paizo hasn’t done exactly this. Anyone know anything?
Probs legal reasons.

Books on dmsguild.com don't need any legal extras. OGL page and citied works. Ya just need to do up a PDF and toss it online.
But everything on paizo.com needs the OGL page. It'd require someone to manually check each submission with legal to make sure it has the proper text and that the adventure doesn't include an umber hulk or sends the heroes to the Demonweb Pits.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It'd require someone to manually check each submission with legal to make sure it has the proper text and that the adventure doesn't include an umber hulk or sends the heroes to the Demonweb Pits.
I don't think that's any different to DMsG having to make sure Batman isn't in a product.
 

I don't think that's any different to DMsG having to make sure Batman isn't in a product.
I'd hope a reasonable person knows not to include Batman in a DnD product.
But knowing a beholder is DnD and not Pathfinder is more specialised knowledge. Or that you can use Asmodeus but not Zariel.

Can you use the roper? Is the flumph allowed or not? Displacer beasts. Yes or no? Which planes are fair game?
 
Last edited:

darjr

I crit!
DMSGuild still has this problem though, just with stuff that sin't allowed yet. Like Greyhawk. So I'm not sure how different that really makes it.

But good point, I didn't think of that.
 



dmccoy1693

Adventurer
Publisher
what I can see is that that market is basically 5e with very little lifting of other publishers.
That's what it was back when the OGL started and with the exception of some 2e and 4e timeframes, that's how it has always been. WotC started the OGL for several reasons:

1) Goodwill. TSR has a reputation for suing their customers that put their homemade D&D stuff on websites. WotC didn't want to have to do that so they made the OGL and told homebrewers to just add an OGL to their website and all is good.

2) Allow WotC to focus on more profitable books. Stuff like adventures are generally seen as a necessary loss (they don't sell very much, but without them, the profitable core books won't sell nearly as much). So they decided to let smaller companies sell what would be a loss for WotC but be profitable for others, all the while not have to deal with official licensing problems.

3) Start a farm team. WotC was able to hire people that already had experience with their system instead of new hires having no experience whatsoever in writing professional-level material for their system.

It was seen as a win-win, and still is. Did they need to do it, no. But they felt they could go farther with it than without it. And frankly, they were right.
 

WOTC specifically also has more resources to do that kind of legal vetting as well, Paizo runs a tight ship, all things considered-- you can tell from the way their warehouse team discusses the logistics of their job.

I would also say that as a corporate strategy DM's Guild suits WOTC way more than Paizo, specifically WOTC's role in the market with 5e is just to consolidate their hold, by driving third party to their platform and creating community and engagement with 5e, they can create natural incentives not to diversify. We're seeing this play out with youtubers and such who ultimately stand to lose a lot from switching systems too because of their reliance on that 5e 'we don't play other systems' crowd, DMs Guild as a platform for acquiring and engaging with content, that only allows DND in the first place, serves to create an incentive to emphasize that 5e content-- compared to if it was multi-system.

I think we'll continue to see a slow build of 2e content both third party and on youtube as the market grows, but the 5e hold is hard to break, in the short term it would either take some major WOTC scandals to make them even more radioactive than recent events have made them such that a big part of the youtube audience looks for an alternative to their products, or a major content creator jumping and taking their fanbase with them.

I'll be honest, when I say 'major content creator' it would pretty much have to be Critical Role, if say, Matt's next campaign were in a system like Pathfinder 2e, that would be a goddamn seismic shift in the balance of power. Its hard to imagine since he's literally partnered with WOTC at this point for published products like Wildmount, but if either WOTC went radioactive or he just really decided he liked the system, it would be possible-- he actually tweeted a heavily signed copy of the CRB the Paizo team gave him and he was a big 1e fan before the stream started. If nothing else, I'm kind of surprised they haven't done a one shot in it like they have for other systems.
 
Last edited:


Parmandur

Book-Friend
WOTC specifically also has more resources to do that kind of legal vetting as well, Paizo runs a tight ship, all things considered-- you can tell from the way their warehouse team discusses the logistics of their job.

I would also say that as a corporate strategy DM's Guild suits WOTC way more than Paizo, specifically WOTC's role in the market with 5e is just to consolidate their hold, by driving third party to their platform and creating community and engagement with 5e, they can create natural incentives not to diversify. We're seeing this play out with youtubers and such who ultimately stand to lose a lot from switching systems too because of their reliance on that 5e 'we don't play other systems' crowd, DMs Guild as a platform for acquiring and engaging with content, that only allows DND in the first place, serves to create an incentive to emphasize that 5e content-- compared to if it was multi-system.

I think we'll continue to see a slow build of 2e content both third party and on youtube as the market grows, but the 5e hold is hard to break, in the short term it would either take some major WOTC scandals to make them even more radioactive than recent events have made them such that a big part of the youtube audience looks for an alternative to their products, or a major content creator jumping and taking their fanbase with them.

I'll be honest, when I say 'major content creator' it would pretty much have to be Critical Role, if say, Matt's next campaign were in a system like Pathfinder 2e, that would be a goddamn seismic shift in the balance of power. Its hard to imagine since he's literally partnered with WOTC at this point for published products like Wildmount, but if either WOTC went radioactive or he just really decided he liked the system, it would be possible-- he actually tweeted a heavily signed copy of the CRB the Paizo team gave him as a thank you for everything he's done for RPGs and he was a big 1e fan before the stream started. If nothing else, I'm kind of surprised they haven't done a one shot in it like they have for other systems.
I would not say that PF2E really has a very streaming friendly structure, compared to Call of Cthulu or Honey Heist. The PF1E one-shot back in the day was rather rough viewing.
 



I will say though, from what I've watched and listened to (like the Drunken Geek Podcast! love the bite sized episode format), its not much worse than 5e for that kind of content-- its options dense so character building is a little bit more of an investment, but the actual moment to moment rules aren't really that much more elaborate, players have more options in a turn too, but the critical role cast are too good of performers to really let themselves sit their debating what to do for long periods of time anyway.

Pretty much all of the other systems would just be tools for Matt to use behind the screen, like he already does for some stuff-- like fitting exploration activities to what the players say they're doing is pretty much the same as translating Marisha's elaborate descriptions of narrative kung fu into actual checks and actions.
 

I will say though, from what I've watched and listened to (like the Drunken Geek Podcast! love the bite sized episode format), its not much worse than 5e for that kind of content-- its options dense so character building is a little bit more of an investment, but the actual moment to moment rules aren't really that much more elaborate, players have more options in a turn too, but the critical role cast are too good of performers to really let themselves sit their debating what to do for long periods of time anyway.

Not familiar with that Podcast. Is it edited or raw audio?
 


teitan

Legend
That's what it was back when the OGL started and with the exception of some 2e and 4e timeframes, that's how it has always been. WotC started the OGL for several reasons:

1) Goodwill. TSR has a reputation for suing their customers that put their homemade D&D stuff on websites. WotC didn't want to have to do that so they made the OGL and told homebrewers to just add an OGL to their website and all is good.

2) Allow WotC to focus on more profitable books. Stuff like adventures are generally seen as a necessary loss (they don't sell very much, but without them, the profitable core books won't sell nearly as much). So they decided to let smaller companies sell what would be a loss for WotC but be profitable for others, all the while not have to deal with official licensing problems.

3) Start a farm team. WotC was able to hire people that already had experience with their system instead of new hires having no experience whatsoever in writing professional-level material for their system.

It was seen as a win-win, and still is. Did they need to do it, no. But they felt they could go farther with it than without it. And frankly, they were right.
Yes I’m aware. Thanks.
 

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top