What's the difference between D20 Fantasy and D&D?

[Gentlegamer]

Even without any changes in the band setup? Harsh ...

That's what makes it a genuine sellout, though Cliff Burton had "left" the band.

RIP Cliff

 

[FireLance]

In order to answer the question of whether 3.5e is D&D, you first need to determine what makes something D&D, and it will be a different thing for different people.

For some, it is simply a matter of what the legal owner of the D&D brand calls D&D.

For others, it is a matter of iconic game concepts such as the six ability scores, hit points, armor class, races, classes and levels, experience points, saving throws, memorizing or preparing spells, magic missile, fireball, etc.

For others, it is the game experience of creating a character, fighting monsters, overcoming challenges, getting rewarded with experience and treasure, and making that character more powerful.

For others, it is racial level limits, or non-standardized experience tables.

 

[Thurbane]

Which is, in effect, sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "naah naah I can't hear you!"

I think you are entirely missing his point. Why should it matter to you whether he acknowledges 3.5 as "D&D" or not?

Heck, people could call the Eiffel Tower the Empire State Building for all I care - I might correct them once, but if they chose to keep calling it something different, I'm hardly going to go fretting over it...

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'm interested in where Papers & Paychecks (and anyone else who makes this distinction) draws the line.

For me:

OD&D(1974)
Holmes
B/X
BECMI/RC
OAD&D

are all VERY MUCH D&D.

AD&D 2nd Edition

is still definitely D&D, but starting to drift (especially as time went on -- Players Option I'm looking at you). My personal line for the "this is D&D" gets drawn here.

=========== THE LINE ======================

D&D 3.0
D&D 3.5

While inarguably D&D in name, the d20 system is different enough that it feels like a related, but different game, to me. I don't call it "d20 Fantasy," though. I just call it 3rd Edition, usually. To me, d20 Fantasy means "Fantasy RPG products using the d20 system that don't bear the D&D trademark." Arcana Unearthed is a good example.

There's my perspective. For the record, I've had fun playing all the versions. My favorites are B/X and OAD&D (without UA/DSG/WSG). I'll play any of them, though.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

=========== THE LINE ======================

I'd draw it in the same place.

I think 2e was a horrible mistake (and the market agreed; the launch of 2e halved the D&D audience at a stroke). But I think skills & powers was where it completely jumped the shark.

Nevertheless, I agree that skills & powers was still basically the D&D engine.

I don't care who owns it; it didn't stop being D&D when Gary Gygax got the boot, or when TSR went bust.

To me, it stopped being D&D when it was redesigned as Rolemaster on a d20.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I think you are entirely missing his point. Why should it matter to you whether he acknowledges 3.5 as "D&D" or not?

Thank you, Thurbane. Succinct, accurate, non-confrontational.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

These are the folks I'm talking about. The completely unreasonable folks who seem to contribute little to the forums past screeds about how D&D 3x sucks, isn't worthy of the name, etc. What I wondered is why, if these folks dislike the curent edition of D&D so much, do they post here? There are other communities where discussion of D&D 3x is discouraged or even verboten. Why not post there, instead?

Is there a straw man in the room?

 

[WayneLigon]

I think 2e was a horrible mistake (and the market agreed; the launch of 2e halved the D&D audience at a stroke).

I sincerely doubt this happened. The people I know changed over to 2E with barely a bump.

2E just wasn't all that different from 1E. Clerics were slightly different, the 'to hit' tables were gone, a race and a couple classes that nobody I know ever played were gone, and that was really about it. Nothing major changed, and it was at best a missed opportunity. An edition change should offer an experience significantly improved and different from the previous one; else it's just a revision. (To me, 3.0 and 3.5 are the same game; 3.5 was a weird hybrid of a revision and new edition. Almost the latter but with changes too broad to really be the former).

Now, if they had changed to something like the SAGA engine, then I might beleive that a significant number of people might have checked out. They'd have been back soon or new people to the game would have made up the difference for them.

 

[teitan]

So if a bunch of 15 year olds "bought" the right to the name Led Zeppelin, that would make them Led Zeppelin?

Uhh, yeah. Does it make them the Led Zeppelin we had before? No, its a different Led Zeppelin but still they are Led Zeppelin whether I like it or not. They own the rights, they can do what they want with the name.

A great example of this is Savatage (aka trans Siberian Orchestra)... not ONE original member remains with the band. The producer is the same and John Oliva, the original vocalist writes some music for them but that is it. Still Savatage.

 

[teitan]

By the time 2e had come out, AD&D's audience had ALREADY been cut in half. It wasn't because of 2e, it was because of the negative media exposure and parents reactions against the game during the time period. AD&D2 was STILL the best selling RPG on the market and the 800 pound gorilla of the industry. It could NOT be taken on by anybody in spite of bad fan relations, poor product and even a period with no core product released (when Vampire nearly toppled the game).

Outside of the changes to the classes, which were minor, most of the changes in 2e seem to be simple die changes to say "this was changed" but the results were the same as they were in 1e. I think 2e's biggest weakness was the Priest class. It was great flavour for rping but what was the point in worshipping a demigod other than for rping purposes? You were a fighter with a lesser attack bonus and depending on the deity variable weapon and armour options.

J