D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Dannyalcatraz]

If I was running a game where one player acquired a magic sword and another acquired a folding boat I would build the occasional encounter where the sword helped out, and the occasional situation where the boat came in really handy. That way both players see their characters shine due to what they have. Even if all you ever run are published adventures it's not too difficult to alter something a little to let everyone have their moment in the spotlight.

...and occasionally, your players might surprise you with an unexpected use for it.

For instance, using it as a hiding place when being pursued; as an improvised bridge (especially between rooftops); as a weapon (like a plank) by expanding it at head height, clotheslining someone running down a narrow path.

I think too many people approach this from a combat situation as well as a meta situation. A magic sword (+1) may have a 5% more chance to hit, but does the character really know that? Sure it's sharper, lighter, better balanced and an all around better sword, but from an in-game point of view, is it really worth 500 to 2000 gp? If I had 10k gp to spend, sure I'd buy one. But if I've only scrapped together 2k over the last 6 months, I'm not about to blow all of my money on a slightly better sword.

Spend time on a guitar board, especially one frequented by metalheads. Newbies are always asking about guitar purchases. Despite what more experienced guitarists are telling them, many are intent on buying gear that will provide only a marginal improvement- if any- in their tone...usually because that is all they can afford. Telling them to save up more money before making a purchase often goes unneeded.

Their burning goal is to be the next Alexi Laiho. They're working 2 jobs & eating ramen for weeks so they can buy marginally better gear than they own, and they can't see that buying cheap gear NOW over and over delays their ability to get professional gear later.

This is a daily occurrence.

So a PC buying a 2000gp sword when he has 2000gp and 10cp is perfectly believable to me. Especially a PC in his late teens to early 20s, new to adventuring.

Some keep bringing up the example of how an adventurer would save every cp to always have the best stuff to maximize their lifespan. And while true to a point, there are realistic limits. I work with people every day that are putting their life on the line and while some purchase enhancements to their weapons and their own body armor, they're not the absolute top of the line, they're effective for what they need though. They're still saving money for their family or saving up to buy a house or car though. Sure that $20k weapon may be the absolute best there is, but if they can get 90% of the effectiveness for $5k you can be darn sure that they're only spending $5k. That's why I think the argument that any character would spend everything they have for combat gear falls flat on it's face. The argument is that it's realistic, but then purposefully leaves out every other realistic aspect of a living breathing character.

You ARE talking about well-rounded people with normal expectations outside of combat, as opposed to murderhobos or extreme obsessives (see newbie metalhead guitarists, above).

 

[Ahrimon]

...and occasionally, your players might surprise you with an unexpected use for it.

For instance, using it as a hiding place when being pursued; as an improvised bridge (especially between rooftops); as a weapon (like a plank) by expanding it at head height, clotheslining someone running down a narrow path.

And that would be totally awesome.

Spend time on a guitar board, especially one frequented by metalheads. Newbies are always asking about guitar purchases. Despite what more experienced guitarists are telling them, many are intent on buying gear that will provide only a marginal improvement- if any- in their tone...usually because that is all they can afford. Telling them to save up more money before making a purchase often goes unneeded.

Their burning goal is to be the next Alexi Laiho. They're working 2 jobs & eating ramen for weeks so they can buy marginally better gear than they own, and they can't see that buying cheap gear NOW over and over delays their ability to get professional gear later.

This is a daily occurrence.

So a PC buying a 2000gp sword when he has 2000gp and 10cp is perfectly believable to me. Especially a PC in his late teens to early 20s, new to adventuring.



You ARE talking about well-rounded people with normal expectations outside of combat, as opposed to murderhobos or extreme obsessives (see newbie metalhead guitarists, above).

I can definitely see where your opinion comes from, but I think that you're talking about 1st world obsessions here though. I would hope, outside of spoiled nobles, the people of a fantasy kingdom would take more into account than buying a new lute. But I'll concede that I was raised to be conscious of my finances and these actions are ridiculous to me.

 

[CapnZapp]

The situation is really simple.

5e lacks support for those used to playing dnd a certain way.

When Wotc gets round to publishing solid rules for pricing magic items based on their functions and features, they will add support to 5e for that playing style.

 

[Ahrimon]

The situation is really simple.

5e lacks support for those used to playing dnd a certain way.

This is very true. But it has amazing support for many, many styles of play. I'm sorry that your specific one wasn't selected, but since I'm assuming they chose this way because of the polls they sent out, your chosen way wasn't a largely popular way. I'll never see eye to eye though because what you find as a lack of support I find a feature. I like not having those prices since there is no implicit idea for the players that those prices are set in stone and any game, regardless of style, has to include the items at those prices.

When Wotc gets round to publishing solid rules for pricing magic items based on their functions and features, they will add support to 5e for that playing style.

I don't think that you're going to get this. Not anytime soon anyway. They gave us a foundation and pretty much left this area of the game up to the DMs. You honestly have my sympathies that your way wasn't popular enough for support. But does constantly revisiting your gripes really solve anything? Why not start a thread and get those in the community who agree with you to build a solid price list? With a community effort you should be able to put something together faster than you will receive it from WotC.

 

[Wicht]

It's very easy and reasonable to make a city where the only people able to make continual flame are the head priests of the local temples, the leaders of the mage guild, and the PCs.

Still slogging through page 15, so this might have already been addressed but its worth making something of an issue of...

The idea that magic is not and cannot be for sale is fundamentally flawed because it ignores a very important variable: the players. Sure magic might not be commonly for sale, but what do you do if the PCs find a magic item they don't want and decide to sell it... are you really going to convince them there are no buyers? Or what if the wizard wants to explore the idea of selling continual flames - who is to stop him?

In my experience, my most magic-item heavy games were not actually under 3rd edition, but under 2nd edition when there was no way in the adventure for the adventurers to get rid of the copious amounts of magical gear they were finding at around 7th-10th level. Everything was gleefully kept. (and the problem was made worse when I was sharing DM duties and not fully in control myself of what was being handed out). Players being able to sell some of their magic items is sometimes a good thing.

 

[Hussar]

Still slogging through page 15, so this might have already been addressed but its worth making something of an issue of...

The idea that magic is not and cannot be for sale is fundamentally flawed because it ignores a very important variable: the players. Sure magic might not be commonly for sale, but what do you do if the PCs find a magic item they don't want and decide to sell it... are you really going to convince them there are no buyers? Or what if the wizard wants to explore the idea of selling continual flames - who is to stop him?

In my experience, my most magic-item heavy games were not actually under 3rd edition, but under 2nd edition when there was no way in the adventure for the adventurers to get rid of the copious amounts of magical gear they were finding at around 7th-10th level. Everything was gleefully kept. (and the problem was made worse when I was sharing DM duties and not fully in control myself of what was being handed out). Players being able to sell some of their magic items is sometimes a good thing.

I don't think anyone has an issue with the PC's flogging a magic item or two. That isn't going to matter in the long run. But, even if the PC's do have so many magic items that they feel like they can sell some of them, that doesn't really mean that there are many people out there that will do so. Or that there are so many people out there that the PC's will be able to find them.

I mean, how many of you could find someone who was selling a Lambourgini without using the Internet or a phone book? Purely through word of mouth, could you find someone selling a Lambo? it's not like they're that rare. There are tens of thousands of Lambo's out there on the roads. But, without modern resources like telephones, newspapers and the Internet, could you find someone willing to sell you one?

 

[CapnZapp]

This is very true. But it has amazing support for many, many styles of play. I'm sorry that your specific one wasn't selected, but since I'm assuming they chose this way because of the polls they sent out, your chosen way wasn't a largely popular way. I'll never see eye to eye though because what you find as a lack of support I find a feature. I like not having those prices since there is no implicit idea for the players that those prices are set in stone and any game, regardless of style, has to include the items at those prices.


I don't think that you're going to get this. Not anytime soon anyway. They gave us a foundation and pretty much left this area of the game up to the DMs. You honestly have my sympathies that your way wasn't popular enough for support. But does constantly revisiting your gripes really solve anything? Why not start a thread and get those in the community who agree with you to build a solid price list? With a community effort you should be able to put something together faster than you will receive it from WotC.

You know, your reply is in a vanishingly small minority in that you actually give me the right to enjoy the game my way.

And so hats off to you, Sir.

 

[Ahrimon]

The idea that magic is not and cannot be for sale is fundamentally flawed because it ignores a very important variable: the players. Sure magic might not be commonly for sale, but what do you do if the PCs find a magic item they don't want and decide to sell it... are you really going to convince them there are no buyers? Or what if the wizard wants to explore the idea of selling continual flames - who is to stop him?

I think you are misunderstanding the argument. Or at least as I understand it. (Maybe I'm wrong.) It's not that items absolutely can never be sold or for sale, it's that selling is such a unique thing that there is no set market or rules-of-engagement to explain how. Sure your players can sell an item, but to whom? That's a story waiting to be told. What they can't (by default) is walk into a city and quickly exchange an extra magic item for some cash and walk out. Or simply walk into the city drop a bag of cash and walk out with an item. By default. Of course the DMG does give some advice and a rough outline of item rarities and price ranges if the the DM so chooses to do this, but it's not an assumed part of the system unlike the previous two editions.

That's the crux of some folk's disappointment as I understand it. They want a detailed list, prepared by WotC, of the prices for all of the items. Personally, I think they are asking too much and for the game to cater to their style of playing (campaign, power level, story-type, etc) but I don't fault them for being disappointed that it's not there. I do fault them for spending more time complaining about how easy it would be to do and not taking some initiative and doing themselves.

 

[Wicht]

I don't think anyone has an issue with the PC's flogging a magic item or two. That isn't going to matter in the long run. But, even if the PC's do have so many magic items that they feel like they can sell some of them, that doesn't really mean that there are many people out there that will do so. Or that there are so many people out there that the PC's will be able to find them.

Yes, magic sellers may be rare, but that's not the entire point to consider - how much can the PCs get for what they want to sell. If you have made it clear to your players that magic items are so ultra rare that hardly anybody sells them, then it is actually fairly reasonable to assume they might be able to trade that +3 sword for a kingdom or two. Its hard on the one hand to say that magic items are so rare that nobody will part with them and then say that nobody is willing to pay top dollar when given the chance. But it does help to have a guideline or idea of what the actual market value might be.

I mean, how many of you could find someone who was selling a Lambourgini without using the Internet or a phone book? Purely through word of mouth, could you find someone selling a Lambo? it's not like they're that rare. There are tens of thousands of Lambo's out there on the roads. But, without modern resources like telephones, newspapers and the Internet, could you find someone willing to sell you one?

There have been art auctions for many, many years - long before the internet; and while masterpiece art pieces are incredibly rare and always one of a kind, it is sort of true that there are always one or two of them for sale here or there. Anytime the buyer values the item more than the seller there is the potential for commerce and a transaction. Even with rare magic items, it is actually fairly implausible to me that there would never be any for sell; especially considering death and estates and bandits and what have you. There will always be someone who owns an item who does not value it as much as perhaps they should; unless you go the LotR route where all the powerful magical items put an unhealthy hold upon the one using them so that they are rarely ever parted with because of the mind control going on (but even that only works for an item or two before it wears thin).

 

[Wicht]

I think you are misunderstanding the argument. Or at least as I understand it. (Maybe I'm wrong.) It's not that items absolutely can never be sold or for sale, it's that selling is such a unique thing that there is no set market or rules-of-engagement to explain how. Sure your players can sell an item, but to whom?

I would think that there would actually be quite a lot of people who might be interested in buying magic items such as knights, generals, dukes, counts, kings, wizards, high priests, town fathers - etc. When you make an item rare, you make it quite desirable.

That's a story waiting to be told. What they can't (by default) is walk into a city and quickly exchange an extra magic item for some cash and walk out.

Why not? Does nobody in the community have money?

Or simply walk into the city drop a bag of cash and walk out with an item. By default.

But thats a different thing. I am quite happy to not allow my players to buy items because of scarcity of supply. But supply can go both ways, and the possibility of the players being the suppliers is a very real possibility and DMs need some sort of guide as to what an item should be worth. That's all I am saying.