D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Ahrimon]

You know, your reply is in a vanishingly small minority in that you actually give me the right to enjoy the game my way.

And so hats off to you, Sir.

That's really too bad. It was never mine to give. Table-top roleplaying is such an amazing, and niche, hobby. Fracturing it over playstyle just seems so silly to me. You'd think that a game all about using your imagination would engender a playerbase that could accept that there is more than one way to play the game. Anyway, I really do hope that you get an Unearthed Arcana article with what you need sooner rather than later. I realize that my preferred method was catered to more by this edition than yours may have been, but I would never tell you or anyone else that you were playing wrong. That's my biggest pet peeve around here, people insisting that they're way is the only way. I know it's got a psychological term, where people fight tooth and nail for their thing because they have to validate it, and therefore their choices.

Happy gaming to you, Sir.

 

[Wicht]

I ran 3.0 and 3.5 for years and never had a walmart for magic items, gosh, how was that even possible?

I am going to hazard a guess and say that you had practiced how to say, "no." Its a small word, but a lot of DMs seem to have not yet mastered the art.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I can definitely see where your opinion comes from, but I think that you're talking about 1st world obsessions here though. I would hope, outside of spoiled nobles, the people of a fantasy kingdom would take more into account than buying a new lute. But I'll concede that I was raised to be conscious of my finances and these actions are ridiculous to me.

Modern, maybe, but not 1st world. They're from everywhere.

 

[Ahrimon]

Yes, magic sellers may be rare, but that's not the entire point to consider - how much can the PCs get for what they want to sell. If you have made it clear to your players that magic items are so ultra rare that hardly anybody sells them, then it is actually fairly reasonable to assume they might be able to trade that +3 sword for a kingdom or two. Its hard on the one hand to say that magic items are so rare that nobody will part with them and then say that nobody is willing to pay top dollar when given the chance. But it does help to have a guideline or idea of what the actual market value might be.

I approach it as who in their right mind would pay for an item like that. Sure that sword is powerful, it helps guide your hand (+3 hit) and cuts effortlessly (+3 damage) and even does something else to cause horrible nastiness to those it hits. But could you realistically expect to be handed enough coin to build and outfit a small kingdom in exchange for it? What ridiculously wealthy individual in their right mind would pay for something like that.

As for your second part, the DMG does have guidelines for it. I'll concede they're not highly detailed, but that is so that the DM can customize hat they want it to be worth for their campaign and the given situation. How much does it cost in a high magic vs low magic? What if swords are strictly for nobility (Samurai?) and no one else, what would a magic sword cost in that world cost? What if it was an undead slaying weapon in a zombie invasion. You can bet that would be worth way more than a simple book price could list it as.

So yes not having a detailed system puts more onus on the DM and not everyone has the time or inclination to invest in that. And yes even in a game where the DM allows the purchase of magic items, not having a detailed list of prices could be frustrating to a player who is used to having one. But there are so many more games that are supported by these details not being hard coded than there ever could be with a detailed list.

 

[Wicht]

So yes not having a detailed system puts more onus on the DM and not everyone has the time or inclination to invest in that. And yes even in a game where the DM allows the purchase of magic items, not having a detailed list of prices could be frustrating to a player who is used to having one. But there are so many more games that are supported by these details not being hard coded than there ever could be with a detailed list.

By that logic, a book devoid of rules, allowing you to make up all the rules yourself would be ideal as it would support every system possible.

In truth all editions are as customizable as you want them to be, but the reason some of us prefer a more detailed base is that it is always easier to say, "no" than it is to figure it all out for yourself. Which, imho, is why lite games tend not to sell quite as well as moderately heavy games.

I approach it as who in their right mind would pay for an item like that. Sure that sword is powerful, it helps guide your hand (+3 hit) and cuts effortlessly (+3 damage) and even does something else to cause horrible nastiness to those it hits. But could you realistically expect to be handed enough coin to build and outfit a small kingdom in exchange for it? What ridiculously wealthy individual in their right mind would pay for something like that.

I think, realistically, there would be a huge number of buyers, yes.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I approach it as who in their right mind would pay for an item like that. Sure that sword is powerful, it helps guide your hand (+3 hit) and cuts effortlessly (+3 damage) and even does something else to cause horrible nastiness to those it hits.

...that is nigh indestructible, to boot?

But could you realistically expect to be handed enough coin to build and outfit a small kingdom in exchange for it?

Considering the historical trade done in the RW for magic items and divine artifacts that are believed to have certain powers? For the right item, yes.

A warrior whose sword, shield and armor never needs repair, and who- in cultures where single combat between champions can substitute for clashes of armies- can single handedly win wars?

Whose (magically-enhanced) battle prowess is so well-known that any warrior in the world would feel a morale boost merely by seeing him advancing alongside?

Worth whole armies.

What ridiculously wealthy individual in their right mind would pay for something like that.

Royals, their agents, merchants, and in a game world, definitely other adventurers.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, magic sellers may be rare, but that's not the entire point to consider - how much can the PCs get for what they want to sell. If you have made it clear to your players that magic items are so ultra rare that hardly anybody sells them, then it is actually fairly reasonable to assume they might be able to trade that +3 sword for a kingdom or two. Its hard on the one hand to say that magic items are so rare that nobody will part with them and then say that nobody is willing to pay top dollar when given the chance. But it does help to have a guideline or idea of what the actual market value might be.

I mean, how many of you could find someone who was selling a Lambourgini without using the Internet or a phone book? Purely through word of mouth, could you find someone selling a Lambo? it's not like they're that rare. There are tens of thousands of Lambo's out there on the roads. But, without modern resources like telephones, newspapers and the Internet, could you find someone willing to sell you one?[/QUOTE]

There have been art auctions for many, many years - long before the internet; and while masterpiece art pieces are incredibly rare and always one of a kind, it is sort of true that there are always one or two of them for sale here or there. Anytime the buyer values the item more than the seller there is the potential for commerce and a transaction. Even with rare magic items, it is actually fairly implausible to me that there would never be any for sell; especially considering death and estates and bandits and what have you. There will always be someone who owns an item who does not value it as much as perhaps they should; unless you go the LotR route where all the powerful magical items put an unhealthy hold upon the one using them so that they are rarely ever parted with because of the mind control going on (but even that only works for an item or two before it wears thin).[/QUOTE]

But, again, how do you, itinerant mercenary vagabond with few or no ties to the city you happen to be staying in, get invited to a "magic auction"? Wouldn't that sort of thing be restricted to the very upper levels of society? And wouldn't advertising that you were trying to sell one of these very high priced pieces put you smack dab on the radar for every thief out there to come knocking?

It's not terribly unreasonable that magic items might not be fungible on a practical level. Sure, magic items might be bought and sold in some very specialized sections of society, but, how exactly do you insinuate your PC into that society?

There's no inherent reason for magic items to be a commodity. They can be, sure. But, not necessarily so.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, magic sellers may be rare, but that's not the entire point to consider - how much can the PCs get for what they want to sell. If you have made it clear to your players that magic items are so ultra rare that hardly anybody sells them, then it is actually fairly reasonable to assume they might be able to trade that +3 sword for a kingdom or two. Its hard on the one hand to say that magic items are so rare that nobody will part with them and then say that nobody is willing to pay top dollar when given the chance. But it does help to have a guideline or idea of what the actual market value might be.

There have been art auctions for many, many years - long before the internet; and while masterpiece art pieces are incredibly rare and always one of a kind, it is sort of true that there are always one or two of them for sale here or there. Anytime the buyer values the item more than the seller there is the potential for commerce and a transaction. Even with rare magic items, it is actually fairly implausible to me that there would never be any for sell; especially considering death and estates and bandits and what have you. There will always be someone who owns an item who does not value it as much as perhaps they should; unless you go the LotR route where all the powerful magical items put an unhealthy hold upon the one using them so that they are rarely ever parted with because of the mind control going on (but even that only works for an item or two before it wears thin).

How is anything in the world given value?

How much for a +3 sword? How much do you want it? We're talking a very rare item, not the crap you find in goblin hoards, the stuff liches guard. Making a new one is a legendary task. Yet, it gives you a 15 percent advantage on hits and nearly a 1/3 bonus on damage. What's it worth to you? How about a million? 50,000? Do I hear 60,000? Will you take a well-worn copper? How about your first born? Will you trade this staff of fire for it?

The issue isn't that nobody buys and sells, it's that it's such a rare and personal experience that it is impossible to set a definite price. The DMG sets some guidelines, but as any collector with a price guide knows, those prices are not a guarantee on investment.

So you sell magic the same way you sell anything rare: haggle, trade, auction, and hope you get the better end of the deal.

 

[Ahrimon]

By that logic, a book devoid of rules, allowing you to make up all the rules yourself would be ideal as it would support every system possible.

Isn't there a fallacy for this? Taking something to an extreme in an attempt to show that the original argument was incorrect. I really need to learn these some day.

In truth all editions are as customizable as you want them to be, but the reason some of us prefer a more detailed base is that it is always easier to say, "no" than it is to figure it all out for yourself. Which, imho, is why lite games tend not to sell quite as well as moderately heavy games.

Is it really easier to say no? Every day we see stories on the DM boards about players pushing for what they want because it's in the books and DMs frustrated because players wanted something outside of the scope of the campaign and feeling like they were justified simply because it's in the book. I'd say the opposite is true. It's easier to say "yes". Especially when you are given control of what is behind yes. "Yes you can buy that sword, it costs X" is so much easier to say than "No, the cost of that sword 3x book price because of the game style I'm running."

I don't understand why more DMs aren't comfortable with winging it. Magic items aren't the make or break a character things that they were in the last few editions. Does it really matter if you only charge 10k gold instead of 20k or 20k instead of 10k? Adjust the game and move on.

I think, realistically, there would be a huge number of buyers, yes.

Well, we definitely approach the game differently. I would think the NPCs would be more apt to re-invest into their merchant empire or fund their army for the next year or so rather than buying a single nifty sword that cuts a bit better than a regular sword.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If I was running a game where one player acquired a magic sword and another acquired a folding boat I would build the occasional encounter where the sword helped out, and the occasional situation where the boat came in really handy. That way both players see their characters shine due to what they have. Even if all you ever run are published adventures it's not too difficult to alter something a little to let everyone have their moment in the spotlight.

I think too many people approach this from a combat situation as well as a meta situation. A magic sword (+1) may have a 5% more chance to hit, but does the character really know that? Sure it's sharper, lighter, better balanced and an all around better sword, but from an in-game point of view, is it really worth 500 to 2000 gp? If I had 10k gp to spend, sure I'd buy one. But if I've only scrapped together 2k over the last 6 months, I'm not about to blow all of my money on a slightly better sword.

Some keep bringing up the example of how an adventurer would save every cp to always have the best stuff to maximize their lifespan. And while true to a point, there are realistic limits. I work with people every day that are putting their life on the line and while some purchase enhancements to their weapons and their own body armor, they're not the absolute top of the line, they're effective for what they need though. They're still saving money for their family or saving up to buy a house or car though. Sure that $20k weapon may be the absolute best there is, but if they can get 90% of the effectiveness for $5k you can be darn sure that they're only spending $5k. That's why I think the argument that any character would spend everything they have for combat gear falls flat on it's face. The argument is that it's realistic, but then purposefully leaves out every other realistic aspect of a living breathing character.

I agree with all of the above but I wanted to comment on the bold. I run a sandbox, and so I don't tailor adventures to characters. Instead I try to put in situations such that a folding boat will occasionally be useful, regardless of whether or not the PCs in question currently have a boat. I put in opportunities to negotiate with bad guys, and to sneak around, and bribe the opposition, and use illusions. I'm still a fairly new DM, but my hope is that if my guys ever have a chance to acquire a folding boat, they will think, "Hey, that might come in handy the next time we are fleeing across a river. Also, sure would have been nice to have when the Slaad was getting away last week month." Maybe they will acquire it (or keep it, if it was something they found) and maybe they won't, but either way it will be an exercise of player agency.

I see it as a DM's duty to provide interesting things for all characters to do, and that includes characters that haven't been created yet.

(Coincidentally, before this thread came up, I had already put an 8000-year-old folding boat with a ridiculously long name full of vowels, Vauan'il'ikki'iaun or something, into the treasure hoard of the Death Slaad that they're currently intent on fighting next session. Who knows if they will ever find it or not.)