D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[FrogReaver]

gold is for out of combat purposes and to gate some early game gear. Beyond that your character should be using gold to accomplish something he wants to do. Start a church, bribe a guard, donate to the poor, start a horse farm, build a library, etc. Gold is to influence the world around you.

 

[Derren]

Wont argue at all that there are other systems you prefer for how they handle non-combat stuff... everybody has their preferences after all. But to say D&D has ignored them is just not accurate.

It has nothing to do with preference, just with accepting that for anything not combat or directly adventure related, and that includes a use for gold now, D&D offers minimal to no support at all.
Sure you can invent uses, but that doesn't change that the system is lacking (Oberoni fallacy?)

 

[5ekyu]

It has nothing to do with preference, just with accepting that for anything not combat or directly adventure related, and that includes a use for gold now, D&D offers minimal to no support at all.
Sure you can invent uses, but that doesn't change that the system is lacking (Oberoni fallacy?)

Well at least we have gotten away from "ignores" to "minimal" so some progress was made.



We will just have to agree to disagree on the rest tho.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, advice like "to keep the players interested in intrigue promise them combat support."

Which is minimal. Most of it is about how to create worlds, and the non-combat portion of the game.

Most of the DMG is about painting a broad picture without going into much detail and where to place monsters.

It's not supposed to go into detail. It's about teaching the DM how to create non-combat situations, and then a bit about combat. If you want detail, you should buy a setting, which creates those details for you.

D&D 5E is very bad at anything that does not involve combat. For example you only have a single tool at your disposal, namely charisma checks. No skill, no specialzation, nothing else. And also for all other tasks you only have very generic tool profiencies which are given out by class. Classes which focus by 90% on killing things.

Um, I don't know what game you are playing, but it isn't 5e. The 5e I play has more than charisma checks for non-combat. It also has strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, and intelligence. Unlike combat, which is much more limited, there are millions of things you can do with all of your stats for non-combat checks.

Running anything besides combat in D&D is basically free form make believe as the books have no supporting rules or even guidelines to support it.

Except 24 pages of races with tons of non-combat stuff, 20 pages in the personality and backgrounds section, 17 pages in the ability scores and adventuring section, and dozens of non-combat spells, all in the PHB. And then most of the DMG.

How does a typical day of a barbarian look?

Why would you want the game to tell you what your barbarian has to do during the day? As a player, I want to have control over what my PC does. Maybe I go to the bar. While I'm there I get into a non-combat strength ability check to arm wrestle. Then I engage a non-combat dexterity check to play darts. Perhaps I engage a charisma ability check to hit on the barmaid, and then perform a non-combat dex check to avoid the slap. He likes to drink, so a non-combat con check to avoid getting drunk is probably in order. Later, I question the bartender about our quest with a non-combat charisma check, and consider his information with a non-combat intelligence check to see what else I know about what he revealed. And much, much more. And that's just at the bar. There's a whole city full of non-combat goodness for my barbarian to engage during the day. Much more than the limited combat bar fight he had before leaving.

If D&D was really interested in gameplay besides dungeon crawls the books would talk about those things and offer more detailed rules for things besides combat so that the DM and Players have a baseline they can use to customize things, especially when they have no in deep knowledge of feudal systems besides that there were kings. But instead there is silence and everyone has to do all the work himself.

Open your mind and engage some creativity. The game provides you with all the tools you need to engage in far more than just dungeon crawls. If you don't want to be creative, buy a setting.

 

[Maxperson]

It has nothing to do with preference, just with accepting that for anything not combat or directly adventure related, and that includes a use for gold now, D&D offers minimal to no support at all.
Sure you can invent uses, but that doesn't change that the system is lacking (Oberoni fallacy?)

Plugging your ears and yelling "La! La! La! La!" isn't going to make your baseless claim a fact. D&D does provide a good number of tools for non-combat situations, even if there are other games that do it better.

 

[Derren]

Um, I don't know what game you are playing, but it isn't 5e. The 5e I play has more than charisma checks for non-combat. It also has strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, and intelligence. Unlike combat, which is much more limited, there are millions of things you can do with all of your stats for non-combat checks.

I play the same game as you, I am only consioucs about what parts of the game are covered by the rules and what parts I had to make up because D&D doesn't cover them or where I even had to work around D&D instead of attributing my houserules to the D&D system.
Again, see the Oberoni Fallacy. Just because you can houserule it doesnt change that it is broken, or in this case missing.

Attribute checks have a lot of downsides, for example that they are extremely broad and D&D offers nearly no ability to specialize or even to build a primarily social character. They are just a tiny step above coin flip resolution mechanics.

Except 24 pages of races with tons of non-combat stuff, 20 pages in the personality and backgrounds section, 17 pages in the ability scores and adventuring section, and dozens of non-combat spells, all in the PHB. And then most of the DMG.

Most of it is high level description or dual use stuff. What is missing are any rules or guidelines (apart from attribute checks) for basically living a non adventurer live and moving within society which also includes uses for money. And for non other tasks you only have a very basic tool system, most with an adventurer bend.
[/quote]

Why would you want the game to tell you what your barbarian has to do during the day? As a player, I want to have control over what my PC does. Maybe I go to the bar. While I'm there I get into a non-combat strength ability check to arm wrestle. Then I engage a non-combat dexterity check to play darts. Perhaps I engage a charisma ability check to hit on the barmaid, and then perform a non-combat dex check to avoid the slap. He likes to drink, so a non-combat con check to avoid getting drunk is probably in order. Later, I question the bartender about our quest with a non-combat charisma check, and consider his information with a non-combat intelligence check to see what else I know about what he revealed. And much, much more. And that's just at the bar. There's a whole city full of non-combat goodness for my barbarian to engage during the day. Much more than the limited combat bar fight he had before leaving.
[/quote]Not a day in the life of your barbarian, but a barbarian. And what it does? It gives some impression how non adventuring live in a D&D settings looks like and how barbarians (or if that is too specific for you make it for backgrounds instead) looks like when they are not out dungeon crawling.
And your bar examples highlight several issues D&D has. What, for example, if your barbarian is a professional gambler? Because everything non combat related gets reduced to ability checks being a professional gambler automatically means being sneaky or good at medicine (depending on you using Dex or Wis). Knowledge and skill hardly exists for non combat tasks and it is all about your apitude. You are either born to be good at something non combat related or you are not. But you can never learn it. Coupled with the way classes work it results in a caste system variant where your combat class determines what non combat things you can and can't do because of the ability score distribution and profiencies. And good look trying to build a face type of character which eshews combat power for social skill.

Open your mind and engage some creativity. The game provides you with all the tools you need to engage in far more than just dungeon crawls. If you don't want to be creative, buy a setting.

You must be pretty unimagitive then when you need D&D books and dice to play. Millions of children manage to play cowboys & indians without them...
Again, Oberoni Fallacy. Just because you can invent stuff to cover the shortcomings of D&D doesnt mean those shortcomings don't exist. Not even setting books give an actual insight of how live in that setting actually works.
Someone above said you should build castles etc. with your money. Okay, so what does that mean? What are the responsibilities as a noble, how does feudalism work and what challenges do nobles face? No D&D book gives an answer to that, including setting books. As far as the system cares you write "castle" on your character sheet and thats it.

And that includes gold. Its just more noticeable for many people as it got downgraded to being unimportant rather recently and used to be a pretty important for adventurers.
Thats why you see threads about uses for gold and not generally about the non combat aspects of RPGs. But imo the underlying issue is the same.

 

[5ekyu]

Had to edit out the broken quotes but this is to the poster going on about Oberoni like it's new from their word of the day rpg calendar...

As I am want to do as claims become more and more extreme regarding what RPGs "fail"at, I ask you this - can you name three RPG which "succeed" at your castle requirement? Can you name three RPGs thst succeed at your day in the life of for "a" bard/skald or say "necromancer"? Can you name three RPGs that succeed at letting you be a professional gambler eschewing combat skills?

Now for me, the latter would be easy but it's just ye olde classes vs classless division which is quite tired and preference driven.

But still if you would be able to provide these examples of successful RPGs at these "challenges" it would go a long way to helping show this is anything more than just blind denial and floating standards.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Maxperson]

I play the same game as you, I am only consioucs about what parts of the game are covered by the rules and what parts I had to make up because D&D doesn't cover them or where I even had to work around D&D instead of attributing my houserules to the D&D system.
Again, see the Oberoni Fallacy. Just because you can houserule it doesnt change that it is broken, or in this case missing.

Instead of falsely spouting off about fallacies, why don't you actually read the rules. The rules do in fact cover non-combat options for all stats. Not just charisma.

Attribute checks have a lot of downsides, for example that they are extremely broad and D&D offers nearly no ability to specialize or even to build a primarily social character. They are just a tiny step above coin flip resolution mechanics.

The rules do offer ways to specialize. Bards and rogues get to have greater bonuses for skills than other classes. You can use either class to specialize or build a primarily social character.

Most of it is high level description or dual use stuff. What is missing are any rules or guidelines (apart from attribute checks) for basically living a non adventurer live and moving within society which also includes uses for money. And for non other tasks you only have a very basic tool system, most with an adventurer bend.

Why would you need rules for something that takes a few seconds to just do?

Not a day in the life of your barbarian, but a barbarian. And what it does? It gives some impression how non adventuring live in a D&D settings looks like and how barbarians (or if that is too specific for you make it for backgrounds instead) looks like when they are not out dungeon crawling.

Again, I don't want a book to be telling me how I should play my barbarian PC.

And your bar examples highlight several issues D&D has. What, for example, if your barbarian is a professional gambler? Because everything non combat related gets reduced to ability checks being a professional gambler automatically means being sneaky or good at medicine (depending on you using Dex or Wis).

No it doesn't. The rules provide me with ways to specialize in gambling. All I have to do is choose the gambler background, which the rules allow me to take. Then I give myself tool proficiency gambling items(dice, cards, etc.) and then I ask the DM to allow you proficiency with gambling(wis), which the DM will allow since it's a very reasonable request and the rules allow the DM to add in that skill. Viola! A professional gambler who specializes in gambling created via the rules.

If you take a moment to understand the rules, instead of engaging tunnel vision, you will see that they are more robust than you are claiming.

Knowledge and skill hardly exists for non combat tasks and it is all about your apitude. You are either born to be good at something non combat related or you are not. But you can never learn it. Coupled with the way classes work it results in a caste system variant where your combat class determines what non combat things you can and can't do because of the ability score distribution and profiencies. And good look trying to build a face type of character which eshews combat power for social skill.

Try reading the PHB. It will help you understand how to go about learning something after you are born. Backgrounds which are not tied to class allow you to learn proficiencies of your choice, as does the skilled feat.

You must be pretty unimagitive then when you need D&D books and dice to play. Millions of children manage to play cowboys & indians without them...

I've played D&D without them, It's a bit more work to do the random stuff without dice, but not terribly difficult as it can be done fairly without any physical items at all.

Again, Oberoni Fallacy. Just because you can invent stuff to cover the shortcomings of D&D doesnt mean those shortcomings don't exist. Not even setting books give an actual insight of how live in that setting actually works.

Again, just because you claim shortcomings, doesn't mean those shortcomings exist, either. So far you've made claims that the game is mostly combat, which I refuted using the rules, claimed that only charisma is for non-combat, which I refuted using the rules, and claimed that you can't specialize or create a professional gambler, which I refuted using the rules.

Someone above said you should build castles etc. with your money. Okay, so what does that mean? What are the responsibilities as a noble, how does feudalism work and what challenges do nobles face? No D&D book gives an answer to that, including setting books. As far as the system cares you write "castle" on your character sheet and thats it.

You don't need to be a noble to build a castle. D&D is not the real world. And you don't need a book to give you an answer to that. The DM can answer all of those questions very simply. It's not the Oberoni Fallacy to say that, either, as it's not a problem for the DM to have to actually come up with stuff for the game, but rather a strength. I'm not forced to fight a system if I want castles and a feudal society to be different than the One True Way the book would say that those things happen.

 

[5ekyu]

Instead of falsely spouting off about fallacies, why don't you actually read the rules. The rules do in fact cover non-combat options for all stats. Not just charisma.



The rules do offer ways to specialize. Bards and rogues get to have greater bonuses for skills than other classes. You can use either class to specialize or build a primarily social character.



Why would you need rules for something that takes a few seconds to just do?



Again, I don't want a book to be telling me how I should play my barbarian PC.



No it doesn't. The rules provide me with ways to specialize in gambling. All I have to do is choose the gambler background, which the rules allow me to take. Then I give myself tool proficiency gambling items(dice, cards, etc.) and then you ask the DM to allow you proficiency with gambling(wis), which the DM will allow since it's a very reasonable request and the rules allow the DM to add in that skill. Viola! A professional gambler who specializes in gambling created via the rules.

If you take a moment to understand the rules, instead of engaging tunnel vision, you will see that they are more robust than you are claiming.



Try reading the PHB. It will help you understand how to go about learning something after you are born. Backgrounds which are not tied to class allow you to learn proficiencies of your choice, as does the skilled feat.



I've played D&D without them, It's a bit more work to do the random stuff without dice, but not terribly difficult as it can be done fairly without any physical items at all.



Again, just because you claim shortcomings, doesn't mean those shortcomings exist, either. So far you've made claims that the game is mostly combat, which I refuted using the rules, claimed that only charisma is for non-combat, which I refuted using the rules, and claimed that you can't specialize or create a professional gambler, which I refuted using the rules.



You don't need to be a noble to build a castle. D&D is not the real world. And you don't need a book to give you an answer to that. The DM can answer all of those questions very simply. It's not the Oberoni Fallacy to say that, either, as it's not a problem for the DM to have to actually come up with stuff for the game, but rather a strength. I'm not forced to fight a system if I want castles and a feudal society to be different than the One True Way the book would say that those things happen.

"You don't need to be a noble to build a castle. D&D is not the real world. And you don't need a book to give you an answer to that. The DM can answer all of those questions very simply"

Also of course, the building of a castle can be veey different from setting to setting in worlds with the magics in play within core rules.

Walls of stone, earth moving, summoned creatures etc all vary the process so whether its Eberron or Dark Suns or any given setting changes these greatly.

But until i see the poster's syccesses this keeps seeming to be nothing more than the endless goblet - where you keep saying something doesnt have enough of everything else to meet an ever shifting standard.

Personally i cannot imagine an RPG published that spent enough page space to answer all these different lacks in mechanical and detail fashion without requiring GM creation to make it work.

But i am sure the poster can name three or more, cuz this is probably not just trolling.