What's the problem with bringing PCs back from the dead?

[Numion]

In the RAW gods are not necessary for clerics, thus is raise dead necessarily a divine action?

"Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power" - PHB. So it's still divine.

 

[molonel]

In the RAW gods are not necessary for clerics, thus is raise dead necessarily a divine action?

Raise Dead is a divine spell.

You can be a generalist cleric, but you must worship something, be it law or war or some sort of principle or power.

It is not something mortals can do for themselves. They can the power to do so from something greater and divine in nature.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Ok, I didn't have the stuff in front of me. Personally I require gods so its not an issue. Though I wonder how the gods of death feel about being such jokes after awhile.

 

[Numion]

Ok, I didn't have the stuff in front of me. Personally I require gods so its not an issue. Though I wonder how the gods of death feel about being such jokes after awhile.

What do you mean? They'll get their due no matter what .. there's no escape from old age. Or there is, like lichdom, and that's when the death gods get PO'd.

 

[molonel]

Ok, I didn't have the stuff in front of me. Personally I require gods so its not an issue. Though I wonder how the gods of death feel about being such jokes after awhile.

Death is inevitable in D&D, unless you achieve agelessness, undeath or ascend in some way to become an immortal being.

(For example, the Divinely Infused Creature template from Monte Cook's Requiem for a God.)

Immortality is a flavor thing in D&D, anyway, since nobody ever plays the game for an eternity. (Though I've been in some games that seemed to run that way.)

 

[Slife]

"Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power" - PHB. So it's still divine.

A cause
OR
a source of divine power

doesn't have to be divine.

Death is inevitable in D&D, unless you achieve agelessness, undeath or ascend in some way to become an immortal being.

Or unless you have a druid handy and are willing to risk becoming a kobold (young adult body).

 

[Numion]

A cause
OR
a source of divine power

doesn't have to be divine.

English is not my main language, but I think you're reading it wrong. For ex "men and women in uniform" doesn't mean

men

AND

women in uniform

 

[ruleslawyer]

We can agree to disagree on that. You see "neutralize poison" but there weren't any mid-level clerics running around casting a readily available spell. He sat down on a funeral pyre to die because nothing could save him and he was burning to death with the poison inside him.

You seem to require grand statements, and then dismiss a very dramatic death experience as trivial and easily solved. It must be nice to have your cake, and eat it, too.

Snarky comments will get you nowhere. The fact remains that Hercules *did not die.* Even if he did die, it was at the direct action of the gods, and it was his *spirit* that went to Olympus to achieve godhood. You want to try arguing your way around that, fine.
Otherwise, I listed several examples, most of which fit. So I'm not going to quibble.

But the point is: the soul returns, and is reborn, and continues. It happens.

Arjuna, when a man knows the self
to be indestructible, enduring, unborn,
unchanging, how does he kill
or cause anyone to kill?

As a man discards
worn-out clothes
to put on new
and different ones,
so the embodied self
discards
its worn-out bodies
to take on other new ones.

Weapons do not cut it,
fire does not burn it,
waters do not wet it,
wind does not wither it.

It cannot be cut or burned;
it cannot be wet or withered;
it is enduring, all pervasive,
fixed, immovable, and timeless.

Correct; the soul endures. It does in D&D irrespective of the raise dead spell too (what are all those Outer Planes for, anyway?)You're missing the point again, which is that themes of immortality in myth and folklore are about the renewability and immortality of the soul. That concept is directly contradicted by the use of raise dead, which renews the body as if death had never been. Resurrection is an important experience in mythology because it illustrates the immanence of the soul, NOT because it supports the idea that a mortal can pass through death and live unchanged.

You answer that question your way, and I'll answer it mine. Both your way, and mine, have imaginative precadent.

And I will reiterate that your way is actually contradictory to most imaginative precedent for the reasons I cited directly above.

Raise Dead is a divine spell granted by the gods.

Nuff said.

I was waiting for you to say that....

The problem is that as played in almost every campaign, raise dead is an act a) performed by mortals b) on mortals that c) involves the continuation of the mortal being d) without reference to the soul being changed. Elements a-d are directly contradictory to Egyptian, Greek, Vedic, Hindu, and Judeo-Christian themes on the matter (unless you're the Son of God and seeking disciples and someone named Lazarus just passed).

You can call out other people for trying to carve out exceptions if you like; I'm doing no such thing. I'm saying that raise dead screws with the idea of mortality, which is a central theme to most mythological traditions out there. It isn't really possible to demonstrate the importance of immortality or immanence of the soul, or make resurrection a prerequisite for (supreme) godhood or ineffable knowledge, unless the basic good ol' death of the body is a real deal. Raise dead takes that importance away.

 

[Hussar]

*snip*

Playing B10? Plenty of towns and settlements to introduce a new character. Playing X1? You can roll up a native Fighter or Cleric (shaman), or be a shipwreck survivor or an escaped pirate captive or an exiled pirate or anything. In the depths of a megadungeon? Again, hirelings, escaped captives, lost newbies, etc.

Though I prefer to have people start over at 1st level, or 2nd level at most. So that gets around the notion of "there just happens to be a 14th level cleric in the woods!"

See, now I would not play in this game. Gee, I get to be a 1st or 2nd level character poncing around with 8th level characters. Woo hoo. Wake me up in a couple of weeks when my character can actually do something. Meanwhile, I'll be sitting here in the back twiddling my thumbs because everything we're facing right now is going to blort me instantly.

And, of course, this ignores the whole, "Hrm, we're a group of hard bitten veterans who've been slaying stuff for years. You look like a nice fellow, why don't you come with us, completely useless new guy?"

I'd rather go with the raise dead thanks.

 

[Korgoth]

See, now I would not play in this game. Gee, I get to be a 1st or 2nd level character poncing around with 8th level characters. Woo hoo. Wake me up in a couple of weeks when my character can actually do something. Meanwhile, I'll be sitting here in the back twiddling my thumbs because everything we're facing right now is going to blort me instantly.

And, of course, this ignores the whole, "Hrm, we're a group of hard bitten veterans who've been slaying stuff for years. You look like a nice fellow, why don't you come with us, completely useless new guy?"

I'd rather go with the raise dead thanks.

Maybe you've just never given it a chance, or maybe you did but didn't have a DM as good as I am. First of all, it is not unexpected that the party will travel with 1st & 2nd level hirelings (mostly fighters) to assist in combat and exploration. A group of serious delvers is always looking for another guy to carry a spear, manage the mule, pole for traps, etc. It's not too much of a stretch that they'll say "This one looks promising... let's bring him in with a full share and see what he makes of it". That's a small concession to party balance.

Second, I'm not using 3E. In Classic, suppose you have a party of 8th level characters and one of them dies, to be replaced by a 1st level character. By the time the rest of the party hits 9th, the newbie will have hit 8th. The original game didn't do a bunch of funny math with "party average level" and diminishing XP returns and so on. Your goal is to acquire loot from the underworld, and loot gives you the majority of your XP. It's not going to take too much to get the New Guy up to a respectable level.

And I say that if you can't live through a week or two of mule management and 10' pole duty, you have no business being an adventurer, mate!