ruleslawyer said:
Snarky comments will get you nowhere. The fact remains that Hercules *did not die.* Even if he did die, it was at the direct action of the gods, and it was his *spirit* that went to Olympus to achieve godhood. You want to try arguing your way around that, fine.
Translation: molonel, you listed several valid examples to illustrate your point, but I'd rather quibble about the one that does not, in my opinion, rather than acknowledge that you answered the question.
ruleslawyer said:
Correct; the soul endures. It does in D&D irrespective of the raise dead spell too (what are all those Outer Planes for, anyway?)You're missing the point again, which is that themes of immortality in myth and folklore are about the renewability and immortality of the soul. That concept is directly contradicted by the use of raise dead, which renews the body as if death had never been. Resurrection is an important experience in mythology because it illustrates the immanence of the soul, NOT because it supports the idea that a mortal can pass through death and live unchanged.
I'm not missing the point. But no matter what I say, you refuse to acknowledge the valid points of precadence I made, nor the fact that I have answered the questions asked of me. Your only argument appears to be, "That doesn't count! That doesn't count! And no, that doesn't count, either!" You split hairs, softshoe, redefine at whim and ignore valid points simply because they disagree with your concept of mythology.
I agree to disagree with you. Resurrection and the rebirth of the soul have imaginative precadent throughout myth, legend and fantasy literature. D&D is not outside the pale, sorry, and you can't blow enough ink in the water to obscure that fact.
ruleslawyer said:
And I will reiterate that your way is actually contradictory to most imaginative precedent for the reasons I cited directly above.
My way? This has nothing to do with MY way. We're talking about three editions of D&D, now. This isn't MY way. This is Stephen Brust's way. This is D&D's way. This is something that has been used to fantasy, myth and legend down through time to tell stories. I've pulled numerous examples already, and where I list a dozen, you want to quibble about the one you think doesn't count.
Well, go on and do that with your badass self, because right now we're on a train to Brokenrecordsville. If I'm faced with one more repitious post, I'm bailing for greener pastures, my friend.
ruleslawyer said:
I was waiting for you to say that....
Oh no! I fell straight into your trap!
ruleslawyer said:
The problem is that as played in almost every campaign, raise dead is an act a) performed by mortals b) on mortals that c) involves the continuation of the mortal being d) without reference to the soul being changed. Elements a-d are directly contradictory to Egyptian, Greek, Vedic, Hindu, and Judeo-Christian themes on the matter (unless you're the Son of God and seeking disciples and someone named Lazarus just passed).
In your opinion.
And since when have you played in almost every campaign? I've certainly never seen you sitting in MY games or any of the cons where I've gamed, or pickup games.
It's a divine spell granted by the gods. Powerful (level 9+) servants of the gods gain access to it. It fits in line with all sorts of precadence in Norse, Egyptian, Hindu (for Reincarnation) and Judeo-Christian themes on the matter.
And you're just flat-out wrong about Christianity. There is a miracle attributed in Acts 20:7-12 where Paul raises a boy who was killed falling out of a window. Peter raises Dorcas in Acts 9:36-43. I could sift through the history of the saints in both Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions, but why bother? The examples are there. The fact that you don't know them, and refuse to acknowledge them, isn't anything I can change.
ruleslawyer said:
You can call out other people for trying to carve out exceptions if you like; I'm doing no such thing. I'm saying that raise dead screws with the idea of mortality, which is a central theme to most mythological traditions out there. It isn't really possible to demonstrate the importance of immortality or immanence of the soul, or make resurrection a prerequisite for (supreme) godhood or ineffable knowledge, unless the basic good ol' death of the body is a real deal. Raise dead takes that importance away.
In your opinion. Not in mine, and not in the minds of those who disagree with you. And we have ample and valid reasons for believing so.
