What's the Problem with Save-or-Die?

[Starbuck_II]

I agree with you here. The 4e Flesh to Stone gaze is, imho, the way to go. 3 Die rolls (including the "to hit", if needed) in 2-3 turns is enough to give people a chance to act. The "sleep" spell in 4e is exactly what should be done.

Death effects (such as Finger of death) might simply give you the "dying" condition: you have to roll a death save every turn, if you get to 3, you die. Clerics (and other similar classes) might give you bonus to saving throws (with "guidance" spells), and normal classes might give you a +2 if they roll some ability or skill (such as heal).

You could make these failures weaken the creature as well. Say they take 5d6 damage each time they fail the death save.
That way even berfore their time is up in another round, failure has meaning each round as well.

 

[Grydan]

So what's the advantage of dealing 1000d6 damage instead of "you die"?

Or do you mean it should deal damage that may not be enough to kill instantly?

I'd never argue for anything to do 1000d6 damage. Past a certain point, values are better off being set, rather than random. One also reaches a point where there's no point in going any further. If n damage kills everything published, there's not much point in adding any effects that do n+1 damage.

I mostly mean the second.

Something that's instantly lethal to "Joe the Farmer" isn't necessarily instantly lethal to "Josephus the Demigod of Killing Stuff With Pointy Metal Objects", or an Ancient Red Dragon, or Orcus. But granting them immunity to it means it's useless against them. Making it damage, instead, means it's still something that's a threat, just not as big of one.

The saving throw was designed to give an adventurer some chance to avoid at least the worst effects of terrible magical and mythic powers.

If these effects are removed from the game then what is there to separate the fantastic from the mundane? If myth and magic can accomplish nothing but dealing damage do we really need it at all?

If magic isn't going to have a distinctly different feel from the everyday then get rid of it.

Magic doesn't need SoD to be magic. Magic, as I've said elsewhere, doesn't need to be more powerful than mundane effects to be be magic. Especially when those mundane effects include things that, in the real world, can be and have been instantly lethal.

I have no problem with magic that does other things than dealing damage. I'd be perfectly fine with a system or campaign in which magic never did damage at all.

However, when magic is used to try and kill or injure something? Then yes, it should make use of the system we have in place for adjudicating things that try to kill or injure characters.

 

[Kingreaper]

This is exactly the type of effect I'm talking about. Not slowing them and then perhaps later one or more targets might fall asleep.

What if the sleep spell did the following:

"If the target is not currently involved in a life-or-death situation (eg. combat) they immediately fall asleep. Otherwise, they are first slowed by lethargy, and then may fall asleep if they allow the lethargy to overtake their force of will"


Seems a lot more sane, balanced, and mythic, than the old version.

 

[Hussar]

Kingreaper - I think that might be the way to go really. It's a bit labor intensive - particularly if you want to have all or even a majority of spells have different effects depending on the "ground state" of the target, but, it's not a bad way to go.

Take something like invisibility. If you're trying to sneak through an area that isn't on alert, then it grants full invisibility for a long duration. OTOH, if you cast it in combat, the duration drops to a few rounds, or perhaps it only grants concealment. Make it more like a Predator's cloaking field - if you move slowly, no one can see you, but, in the middle of the midden hitting the fan, you show up all wavery.

Charms could all have similar effects - and, it's not like this is new. Casting a charm on someone in combat grants all sorts of save bonuses. Casting it on someone who isn't in combat is much easier.

I like this idea.

 

[ExploderWizard]

What if the sleep spell did the following:

"If the target is not currently involved in a life-or-death situation (eg. combat) they immediately fall asleep. Otherwise, they are first slowed by lethargy, and then may fall asleep if they allow the lethargy to overtake their force of will"


Seems a lot more sane, balanced, and mythic, than the old version.

Kingreaper - I think that might be the way to go really. It's a bit labor intensive - particularly if you want to have all or even a majority of spells have different effects depending on the "ground state" of the target, but, it's not a bad way to go.

Take something like invisibility. If you're trying to sneak through an area that isn't on alert, then it grants full invisibility for a long duration. OTOH, if you cast it in combat, the duration drops to a few rounds, or perhaps it only grants concealment. Make it more like a Predator's cloaking field - if you move slowly, no one can see you, but, in the middle of the midden hitting the fan, you show up all wavery.

Charms could all have similar effects - and, it's not like this is new. Casting a charm on someone in combat grants all sorts of save bonuses. Casting it on someone who isn't in combat is much easier.

I like this idea.

I could get behind this principle 100%. Certain abilities make more sense if they only work out of combat.

I like this idea for both PC spells and abilities and for certain monster abilities where it make sense.

Consider an old hag. She has the ability to magically disguise herself as an attractive young lass, the ability to charm a male that she fancies, the ability to polymorph a victim into a toad, and perhaps a cone of cold ability for outright offensive power.

Lets say that the disguise and charm abilities only work on victims not in combat. Once her true nature is revealed she won't be charming anyone

The polymorph power should be usable in combat because it would be used on someone that resisted her charm and/or discovered her true nature.

Likewise the cone of cold could only be used when she appeared in her true form, otherwise it would break her disguise.

 

[Hussar]

I suppose keywords could work here. Simply have a couple of keywords added to given powers - combat, non-combat, both. Wouldn't actually take up a lot of room.

Combat: This power only functions after initiative is rolled.
Non-Combat: This power only functions outside of initiative.
Both: Well duh.

Once you do that, you could add in the flavor text at the beginning of the effect to reflect its use.

 

[Libramarian]

SoD effects manage to be stressful and boring at the same time. There's no room for build-up when everything is just a binary condition.

This effect is very dependent on how seamless the game moves between overall adventure and combat I think.

I prefer games where the "encounter" with the medusa begins back in town with rumors that there's a medusa inhabiting this warren.

If the "encounter" doesn't begin until you're right beside it and rolling initiative, then yeah, save-or-die is a bit sudden.

 

[Kingreaper]

This effect is very dependent on how seamless the game moves between overall adventure and combat I think.

I prefer games where the "encounter" with the medusa begins back in town with rumors that there's a medusa inhabiting this warren.

If the "encounter" doesn't begin until you're right beside it and rolling initiative, then yeah, save-or-die is a bit sudden.

A lot of that is down to GM advice.

In 3.5, the GM advice for a medusa is to have them avoid becoming known, and when they encounter adventurers to approach them in disguise (being impossible to tell from normal humans until within 30 feet, less if cloaked and/or hooded) before suddenly pulling out the save-or-dies.

The game could have the exact same stats, but replace the advice with things about how they tend to stay in one place and become famous, and will never hide themselves prefering to drive people away through fear, and suddenly the whole nature of the creature becomes different.


I think GM advice is one of the most underestimated tools.

 

[Incenjucar]

This effect is very dependent on how seamless the game moves between overall adventure and combat I think.

I prefer games where the "encounter" with the medusa begins back in town with rumors that there's a medusa inhabiting this warren.

If the "encounter" doesn't begin until you're right beside it and rolling initiative, then yeah, save-or-die is a bit sudden.

This requires a very specific kind of campaign. "Story monsters" require a lot of dropped hints and a narrow application of said monsters. You'll never be able to safely have a medusa assassin with subtle motives who hides their appearance until it's too late.

 

[Hussar]

And, let's not forget, the medusa has been an "aha gotcha" monster since pretty much day 1. You can go all the way back to Keep on the Borderlands, and there's a Medusa trap in one of the caves. There have also been variations on the "Medusa trap" in loads of other adventures as well.

In fact, while I can think of numerous examples of the Aha Gotcha Medusa, I'm totally drawing a blank on the Telegraphed Medusa.